Would you buy puppies from brother/sister parents?

[Calzone]

Never posted here before so please be kind.

My sister has cockerpoos. A brother and sister.

She’s just had another litter of 8 puppies and is looking to sell them for megabucks.

Would you buy one based on their genes?

[Whitney168]

At least we can hope that if her Council does require immediate licensing and she is unable to sell them, and ends up with 6 hooligan puppies running round her house for many weeks past when they should have gone to their new homes - she might not do it again!

[Wolfiefan]

Please report her.
On welfare grounds she should ideally have all the dogs confiscated. I can’t believe someone would be so fucking cruel for money. Poor pups.
Please act today. Some sap will be googling and find these pups on gumtree.

[Wolfiefan]

Not in S Yorkshire are they?

[DuffBeer]

A vet once told me that it was fine for a son to cover its mother and that it would unethical to abort the puppies in this situation!

I completely disagreed.

[spot102]

Vet is (unfortunately) quite correct, but find it difficult to believe they would encourage it! Most animals (barring humans who are conditioned not to) will mate with a member of the opposite sex with no compunction, regardless of how closely related they are.
Not even illegal, but highly inadvisable, unless you know what you are doing, and even then one wouldn't do it regularly.
However it is a good illustration of why one should have dogs registered either with KC or one of the other registers (eg Dog Lovers) as these can produce a family tree and such goings on can be seen. Otherwise, you just wouldn't know. However these particular dogs are not pedigree so KC wouldn't register them, anyone else know if anyone does register cross breeds?

Just out of interest, I had a look at the breeding regs, thought I' see where (hypothetically) I'd stand if I wanted to breed one litter. They really are as clear as mud!! From what I gather, I'd be OK to have a litter for charity, or just give it away. Obviously if I bred more than 3 a year its a business, but if I only bred 1 or 2 its all up in the air and may be a business or may not, depending on the mood of whoever is judging it. And woe betide me if I inadvertently make a profit!

[missbattenburg]

Most animals (barring humans who are conditioned not to) will mate with a member of the opposite sex with no compunction, regardless of how closely related they are.

This is true in artificial environments - where those animals are kept together post sexual maturity. However, lots (most?) animals also have mechanisms in which they disperse from their family unit BEFORE mating. Wolves, for e.g. would leave the family group before finding new territory and mating elsewhere - which is how nature reduces the chances of inbreeding. If they don't make in he same geographical area as their immediate family, they are much less likely to mate with their family.

[Whitney168]

However it is a good illustration of why one should have dogs registered either with KC or one of the other registers (eg Dog Lovers) as these can produce a family tree and such goings on can be seen.

Dog Lovers, or any other 'registration' bar the Kennel Club, can be literally plucked out of the air for whatever that person fancies calling their dog on that day. Such registrations also often include information fraudulently used from genuine breeders' websites.

KC registration isn't foolproof, but any registration bar the KC is just wasting money on printing fancy certificates to fool buyers in to thinking they are getting something official.

[PoshPenny]

This is just revolting, I would report to RSPCA (who normally I don't have much time for) how can your sister think it's ok to breed from siblings, whether human or canine. That should never happen again she needs to get at least one of them neutered

[waterplease]

another litter how many litters has she bred??
Also, cockerpoos are not a breed.

[Bloomcounty]

Would I buy one?

No, I bloody would not.

That's a genetic fuckup disaster that could potentially cost you thousands. Who knows what conditions that DNA pile up will cause?

[troubleswillbeoutofsight]

I know a person who has around 4-5 litters a year, all from her ten dogs. She buys dogs with a view to breeding to make money. Ten years ago she bred lovely pedigree dogs, all KC registered. The fashion has since changed and every Tom Dick and Harry wants one of the poodle/ doodle crosses. So she buys dogs accordingly and mates them to provide the crosses that people want. I'm not sure what they all are but a poodle is always involved and they sell for the same price as a pedigree poodle. They have big litters and all sort of pale coloured and furry and people say 'Awwwww so cute, I'll have one' We're talking around £750 for a bloody cross breed! All the time people confiture to demand these fashion cross breeds, people with few morals will breed them and make a very healthy profit. These dogs are unregistered so God knows how many there are
So stop buying these poodle crosses

[Calzone]

She’s put them up for sale already 😭😭😭😭

[Whitney168]

It is so weird that Poodles in themselves are so unfashionable, but you can cross them with any old breed and suddenly the puppies are so desirable.

I get the appeal, I honestly do. I see so many Poodle crosses when out walking, and the vast majority are attractive friendly dogs, in very appealing colours. I can see why people want them. Unfortunately, the vast majority are buying them from puppy farms and (pre regulation change) thought that buying from a licensed premises they were doing the right thing, where in reality the opposite was probably true.

I just cannot get on board with an industry that exploits animals to this extent, with very little restriction. At least with KC registered puppies there are limits on breeding bitches too young, too old and too often. It's not perfect, but it's a darn sight better than someone clearing £5k profit on a litter and thinking 'hell, why wouldn't I just do that every season?'.

Perhaps the new licensing laws are a good thing, although I've yet to be convinced. Somehow the unscrupulous always find their way round these laws - and, in fact, where there are costs involved in the act of gaining a licence, I suspect it will make some breed even more to 'get their money back'.

Meanwhile, the truly dedicated who would have driven thousands of miles for the right health-tested stud, instead of buying something off Gumtree and mating it to everything, will all just give up.

[WatcherOfTheNight]

Calzone,also it's illegal in the U.K. to not treat a sick animal .

The animal welfare act states that all animals have a right to :

• live in a suitable environment
• eat a suitable diet
• exhibit normal behaviour patterns
• be housed with, or apart from, other animals
• be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease
You may hear people referring to these five welfare needs as the ‘five freedoms’.
Dog owners who fail to ensure their pet’s welfare needs are met face prosecution – but importantly, they run the risk of causing suffering to an animal who they have taken into their home and have a responsibility to care for. Failing to meet a pet’s welfare needs could cause them to become sick, hurt, upset or stressed.
Owners can be taken to court if they don’t look after their pets properly and face a prison sentence of up to six months, and a fine of up to £20,000. They may also have their pet taken away from them, or be banned from having pets in the future.

Is your sister aware of that ?
3 puppies have died already,what about the rest of the litter she has now ?

[Wolfiefan]

So are you going to report? Where is the advert? Report that too.

[Wolfiefan]

@troubleswillbeoutofsight
If all else fails RSPCA council for failure to licence etc. I bet they’re not declaring income. Report for that. Hit them where it matters most to these people. Their bank balance.

[Ihaventgottimeforthis]

This is an animal welfare issue.
Please report her, to the local authority, RSPCA, Consumer Direct: www.pupaid.org/puppy-farming/how-do-we-stop-puppy-farms/

She will not be putting due diligence into finding the surviving puppies decent homes, so will be perpetuating puppy farming and animal abuse.

[Whitney168]

Would be interesting to know which Council licensing area they are in, to see if they've published their required criteria. If you want to PM me, Calzone, I'll have a look. IF the Council's published criteria mean that she would need a licence, it may be worth a little interference by pointing out to the advertising sites that this is not in place.

Again though, in many areas this would not require a licence, and breeding brother to sister is certainly ill-advised and unpalatable, but unfortunately not illegal. (Wolfie's point around taxable income is a good lead though.)

I sound like I'm defending it, and those who know me from such threads will know that I'm not - but there is little point wasting precious official resources on things that are unfortunately not illegal.

[Nesssie]

If she is in Cambridgeshire, please pm me as this would be against the licensing conditions., and she would require a license.

[WatcherOfTheNight]

@Whitney168 what about not providing veterinary treatment for the sick pups?

I find it very hard to believe that it wasn't possible to see they had clefts & needed care .

[moredoll]

the vet told them it was fine to breed as they would in the wild.

The vet might have said they might breed in the wild.
I am 100% sure the vet did not say it was fine to do this.

[bunnygeek]

Poor dogs :(

Depending on how she's selling them, could flag with RSPCA, also Trading Standards if she advertises them with lots of health guarantees she's probably not actually providing. If she happens to be claiming any benefits, she needs to disclose that income too, no tax expert but if it's "mega bucks" is it taxable income?

[Whitney168]

Rather difficult to prove that now though, Watcher.

[waterplease]

@Calzone have you got a link? So we can all send the stupid cow some shit
--
Is she inbred?--

[WatcherOfTheNight]

True Whitney ,op says one of this litter has already died so if they haven't been looked at it may happen again.

Calzone,I hope you've managed to speak to your sister & have told her these pups need checking !