DSD wanting to 'come out' as trans is destroying our relationship ...

[steppinstone]

DSD is 18 and for the last year has been saying she is 'trans'.

CAMHS have been no help - although she is on their caseload but 'held' until she has been to the gender clinic (current waiting times nearly two years). They have said this is not a mental health issue but a physical health issue. So no counselling, despite previous issues with anxiety/eating disorders/self-harm/possible ASD type behaviour. We have offered to pay for therapy and tried to persuade her to attend family therapy with us but she has completely refused and said there is nothing to talk about.

We have largely told DSD that we love her but we cannot take this seriously. She was always quite happy with typical girls' clothes/presentation and only ever mentioned gender issues after she joined a LGBT teen club (saying she was bisexual at the time).

Now she is saying she wants to come out to the whole family and wants top surgery/hormones and change her name.

This is destroying our relationship with her because it's ridiculous. She has two younger siblings (also girls) and they spend all their time doing 'girlie things' together (hairdressing, make up, singing) and DSD has never, ever, exhibited anything like 'boyish' behaviour - and she still doesn't.

I don't know how we deal with this without it destroying our relationship with her. Things are so tense at home now. DH is largely baffled and also really embarassed about it. We really don't want to 'tell the family' because she is and always has been very feminine that the narrative is just laughable.

We are veering between being cross and just burying our heads in the sand. We want it all to go away. How do we cope with this without completely losing her? Where do we even begin?

[MephistoMarley]

Audrey I understand transgenderism very well actually. My mind may be narrow but it fits within the parameters of facts. Im not trying to be so open minded that my brains are falling out like people who call female offspring sons.

[GeorgeTheThird]

If we as a society stopped insisting that girls all have to like pink and pretend to be princesses I'm pretty sure we'd have fewer girls "feeling like boys." When we were kids girls could have short hair, neutral clothes and neutral toys. I'm not surprised there are so many rejecting this gendered claptrap, but I don't think it means they are all boys in female bodies. And there's definitely a thing among teenagers about it being cool at the moment.

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

audrey I think people on both sides of the fence are in danger of generalising here. You certainly sound knowledgeable about what the DSD in this instance may be going through, and perhaps the OP isn't handling it perfectly (who's perfect??) if that's the case.

However is there any space in your perspective that sometimes someone comes out as trans when in fact that is not fundamentally what is going on? Because that is equally a very real occurrence, and who if not the parents should be sensitive to whether or not that is what's happening with their child? Or course all OP can do is exercise due dilligence when trying to get the best possible outcome for their child (because despite being an adult this is still someone's child) and eventually you do have to meet them make their own way, but do you agree the OP has given us information in get post which would warrant her reluctance to embrace this?

Fundamentally though the line has to be drawn somewhere, and if the DSD persists OP will have to get on board or get off, so to speak. But for now based on the available information I think counselling is only sensible and a very reasonable suggestion, plus a degree of parental scepticis... but also a loving and open mind going forwards.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

the transperson expresses a desire to transition and the parents are supposed to try and understand and be supportive of this

Yes, that's what we are supposed to do and if we don't we're big old terfy bigots.

If one of my DC told me they were trans I most definitely would not be offering unquestioning support for their desire to transition, even though they are adults who have left home. They would be setting off down a path that could lead to major surgery and a lifetime of medication with some very nasty side-effects, not to mention infertility and permanent changes which would be very difficult to deal with if they needed to detransition later. All for something which, chances are, won't make them any happier.

If I just went 'yay! my child is trans! cool!' and got the pompoms out I would have failed as a parent.

There are a very few people for whom transition is the best answer to the struggle they have getting through life. Sometimes drastic steps need to be taken, but not often.

There does seem to be a lot of social contagion going on, especially amongst young girls. When I was at school, lots of girls had eating disorders. By the time DD was at secondary, ED had died down but lots of girls were self-harming. I think trans, among young women, could be the latest symptom of the underlying mental distress so many girls experience as they grow up.

You know your DSD and we don't, OP. Do you think she might be lesbian? Coming out as bi could be sticking a toe in the water. Once she got involved with the LGBT group she'll probably have picked up quite quickly that trans is better than lesbian, especially if she doesn't fancy transwomen.

[audreyharley]

WinchesterWoman Don't talk about something that you clearly don't understand.

MephistoMarley You do realise that didn't make sense, right? "I understand transgenderism" to "I'm not trying to be so open minded that my brains are falling out like people who call female offspring sons."

So, you understand transgenderism but people who call their "female offspring sons" brains are falling out. So you don't understand, thanks for the confirmation.

Georgethethird I agree about genders being neutral, but it's not "cool with teenagers at the minute" because it's a serious thing, not some fad that is picked up on the playground. So be sensitive about that.

eatsleephockeyrepeat I don't believe the OP is even trying to relate or understand.

Of course, there could be a great issue, I do not know the ins and outs of this child, but from the information given the OP has made it pretty clear that their child is not only sure of their gender identity, but that they want to tell the world about it.

Why does this require counselling? Other than discussing it with a GP, the child has made it pretty clear that this is what they want.

My suggestion is that the OP talk to their child instead of a parenting forum, my only concern is their negative attitude towards the whole situation.

[audreyharley]

PlentyOfPubeGardens
If one of my DC told me they were trans I most definitely would not be offering unquestioning support for their desire to transition, even though they are adults who have left home. They would be setting off down a path that could lead to major surgery and a lifetime of medication with some very nasty side-effects, not to mention infertility and permanent changes which would be very difficult to deal with if they needed to detransition later. All for something which, chances are, won't make them any happier.

No one said anything about genital reconstruction surgery or chest surgery, I was talking about the OP accepting and respecting her child's mind instead of describing it as "embarrassing" and "laughable". Obviously the first step is not physical transition, no way, the first step is the parent accepting and respecting their child and allowing them to be who they clearly want to be.

Who are you to speak of what would make a transperson happy, someone who suffers from gender dysphoria would be incredibly happy if their body matched the way they felt, don't you think? And some transpeople don't always have to physically transition, transitioning just means telling people, using the right pronouns, informing friends and school, allowing the transperson to be the person that they want to be.

This is called acceptance and the OP and yourself seem to lack a lot of it.

If I just went 'yay! my child is trans! cool!' and got the pompoms out I would have failed as a parent.
No, just no. No trans parent "gets the pompoms out" and says "yay! my child is trans! cool!"what a stupid thing to say. It obviously isn't easy, it's a complicated journey, no one is saying being trans is fun or cool. It isn't a celebration, it's about sensitivity and accepting a person for who they are.

Heaven forbid you actually accepted your child, yes that would absolutely mean you failed as a parent. Do you believe that the OP not accepting her child makes her a good parent?

Don't even attempt to compare eating disorders to gender dysphoria, there is absolutely no correlation. I think there's a fine line between saying "I don't like the way females are treated in society" and "I want to be a male because that's how I mentally feel."

[WinchesterWoman]

You seem to be saying I don't understand that a girl is a girl. What pray then is a girl?do help me to understand with your own definition.

[MuffyTheUmpireSlayer]

Support her by not arguing with her (/him/them) about it. Use the names and pronouns she prefers. It's no skin off your nose to do so and it will make her feel happier and more supported. Isn't that what you want?

Once she's been seen by a specialist she'll undergo lots of counselling and will either continue going by the new name and pronouns, or just go back to the original. Either way, you've supported her and she'll be happier.

[audreyharley]

WinchesterWoman I will try to explain this very simply.
A girl, is someone who identifies as a girl.
A boy, is someone who identifies as a boy.

Penis and Vagina are sexual organs and have nothing to do with gender identity, but I don't expect someone still living in the 50s to understand that concept.

[WinchesterWoman]

You can't have a definition that contains the term you are defining.

Do you understand that?

So - what's a girl?

[WinchesterWoman]

And by the way - it's common practice for transgender activists to hurl insults and then disappear when run rings round in arguments. Try not to fall into that trap. You are rather near the edge.

[audreyharley]

WinchesterWoman
I am in no way a transgender activist, it's called being a decent person, should try it sometime. I'd hardly say I'm disappearing since it's only been a matter of minutes since my last message, fret not, I'm going nowhere.

Instead of replying to me, maybe you should spend your time researching transgender, since you don't seem to have a clue what's going on here.

[WinchesterWoman]

What's a girl, Audrey?

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

sigh Such a tough topic. I know you've said not to compare gender identity and eating disorders audrey and that's not what I'm about to do. However I am about to make a comment about one in the context of someone who the OP says has struggled with both... Someone who has suffered/is suffering with an eating disorder is a questionable authority on their own body and their relationship to it.

I suggest counseling because anyone with that history needs careful support and observation when making drastic decisions regarding such matters, especially when the history is so recent. Anyone who had truly recovered would almost undoubtely accept this as sensible. I imagine the same is true of those who have self harmed.

[Shallishanti]

OK Audrey, can you explain 'gender identity' in a way that doesn't refer to a culturally defined gender stereotype?

[WinchesterWoman]

Or indeed a vagina or a penis - that's out.

[audreyharley]

WinchesterWoman
A girl is someone who identifies in that existing gender category, a girl is someone who follows that side of the gender binary and sees themselves in the same light as society wishes to see for a female person. A girl does not always have "girl parts" but rather see's herself standing with that side, rather then the opposing side.

Are you done asking stupid questions to hide the fact that you do not understand what's going on here?

[MephistoMarley]

A girl is a female child - one with xx chromosomes, a female reproductive system and being of the sex that can produce eggs
A boy is a male child - one with xy chromosomes, a male reproductive system and being of the sex that can produce sperm

A girl is not 'whoever feels like a girl' and nor is a boy 'whoever feels like a boy'

Being a girl or boy are states that are intrinsically linked to the sexed body and the socialisation received as a result of that sexed body. No boy can know what being a girl feels like, and vice versa.

[WinchesterWoman]

Actually I've just remembered this is a support and appeal for help thread and not a general 'trans debate thread'.

OP all the best to you and your family.

Audrey: there are plenty of trans threads if you want to have this conversation. I would still love you to define what a girl is, but for my part I don't want to turn this away from a support thread.

[audreyharley]

Shallishanti Can you explain the concept gender in a way that doesn't reflect it as a social construct?

[WinchesterWoman]

X post. I see you are still unable to define what a girl is. Better luck next time.

[MephistoMarley]

So being a girl is about identifying with social expectations of girls?
That's what makes a girl? Wanting to be seen behaving in ways normally expected
Of girls?
Being a girl is wearing dresses and makeup and long hair, being feminine and nurturing? Am I right?

[katemess12]

You mention that she has past mental health issues, but you don't seem to consider the possibility that those issues have stemmed from this. Just because she's never displayed "boyish" behaviour before, doesn't mean that isn't how she's felt. A lot of gay people get married and have children and only later come out, but that doesn't meant that they weren't always gay.

[audreyharley]

MephistoMarley
What you have described is biological sex. Gender identity has no correlation to that, the psychological and emotional identity of someone is their gender identity and it has been proven with the many cases of transgendered people, that it is more than possible for a person with xx chromosomes and a female body, to be detached from this and feel emotionally and psychologically another gender.

No boy can know what being a girl feels like, and vice versa. I'm not sure exactly where you're going with that, but there are not two types of brain. There is no male and female brain, there is only one brain. So it's entirely possible for a "girl to feel like a boy" if you like.

I suggest you read this article: www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/gender-when-body-and-brain-disagree

[WinchesterWoman]

Audrey I think you're mixed up. Penis/vagina= sex. Make up, long hair, dresses = gender stereotypes = gender.