DSD wanting to 'come out' as trans is destroying our relationship ...

[steppinstone]

DSD is 18 and for the last year has been saying she is 'trans'.

CAMHS have been no help - although she is on their caseload but 'held' until she has been to the gender clinic (current waiting times nearly two years). They have said this is not a mental health issue but a physical health issue. So no counselling, despite previous issues with anxiety/eating disorders/self-harm/possible ASD type behaviour. We have offered to pay for therapy and tried to persuade her to attend family therapy with us but she has completely refused and said there is nothing to talk about.

We have largely told DSD that we love her but we cannot take this seriously. She was always quite happy with typical girls' clothes/presentation and only ever mentioned gender issues after she joined a LGBT teen club (saying she was bisexual at the time).

Now she is saying she wants to come out to the whole family and wants top surgery/hormones and change her name.

This is destroying our relationship with her because it's ridiculous. She has two younger siblings (also girls) and they spend all their time doing 'girlie things' together (hairdressing, make up, singing) and DSD has never, ever, exhibited anything like 'boyish' behaviour - and she still doesn't.

I don't know how we deal with this without it destroying our relationship with her. Things are so tense at home now. DH is largely baffled and also really embarassed about it. We really don't want to 'tell the family' because she is and always has been very feminine that the narrative is just laughable.

We are veering between being cross and just burying our heads in the sand. We want it all to go away. How do we cope with this without completely losing her? Where do we even begin?

[Love51]

If dsd can't get the counselling, will that mean she can't have anything medical done to her body? That must be a relief in some way. Once you take away any medical procedures, what you have is a teenager redefining her identity. Think back to when you were a teen - your friends and acquaintances who were goths or punks or chavs or tahnies, most of them will have retained an element of that self (in how they dress, eat, tastes in music, entertainment) but it might not be obvious to someone meeting them for the first time which 'tribe' they belonged to. So, if she does not eventually take the medical route, she will be someone who had been trans for a while, but also has all her other life experienced shape her.

In the meantime, you humour her. Because it's polite. Loads of people at all stages of life change their name - not just surnames but also might start going by their middle names, or lizzie instead of elizabeth, because that's how they want to be identified. The rest of us have to accept that (even if we've known them ages and sometimes accidently revert to the old name when talking about things that happened in the olden days when they had that name). You need to be polite with names and pronouns.

[marvelousdcomics]

I just wanted to post here. OP, I know how you feel. My DD (14) has gone through this. She suffered from anorexia, bulimia, binge eating, self harm, anxiety and depression. She couldn't cope and so she came to the conclusion of being transgender. This only caused more problems. She was watching videos of trans people, on websites, insisting she was a boy. She wasn't, and she isn't. She was running from and hurting herself even more. Things this past week have been absolute shit (sorry for the profanity). She's now coming to the realisation that she isn't transgender. She is an intelligent, helpful and amazing girl with a bright future ahead of her. She is my beautiful daughter who wears (and has always worn) 'boys' clothing and boxer shorts. She has short hair. She engages in 'boys' activities. And yes, she isn't the biggest fan of her body, but I don't know anyone who is completely content with theirs, and jumping to the conclusion of being trans isn't helpful. I wish you and your daughter the best

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

What are you actually going to lose if your child is trans?

OP won't personally lose anything, AKink, though the whole family will undergo years of fear and worry. What's more important is what her DD will lose. The physical changes wrought by hormones, binders and surgery are very unpleasant, and can include gangrene of the breasts, becoming sterile and a raised risk of cancers and cardiovascular disease - strokes and the like. The effects of male hormones on women are more damaging, and permanent, than the other way round. Only a few years on male hormones can leave a detransitioned transman with a permanently lowered voice, male body hair and male pattern baldness. And there are a lot more detransitioners than the trans lobby admits.

A survey of over 200 detransitioned transmen has been done recently. I can't link easily because I'm on my phone, but it's easy to find. The lack of care and gatekeeping shown to these very young women is horrifying. OP is right to be fearful and needs to arm herself with as much factual information as possible.

[AKinkAdmirer]

I've used gender-neutral pronouns to be on the safe side.
Please don't assume your child isn't genuinely trans. The fact it appears to be 'fashionable' in some circles and the fact they have only exhibited feminine behaviours before doesn't negate the possibility of them being sincere. Especially since they have been saying this for a year, that sounds rather long for it to just be a phase, particularly when you account for the time they have to spend thinking it over before telling anyone at all. I wonder - do you feel this is more likely to be a temporary state because their bisexuality was?
It's normal for sexuality to fluctuate. It's also normal for gender identity to fluctuate. If this does turn out just to be a stage, so what? Teenagers need to go through different phases in the search for their identity, whether through gender, dress, taste or some other medium. Would telling the family they were transgender only to revert back to being female later on, in the event that it did transpire to be a phase, be much more embarrassing than going through a stage of outrageous fashion sense? Teenagers need to go through the "narcisistic and fashionable" stage in some form or other. Since they can't actually get surgery yet, what would be the long-term harm?

Then it is a real possibility they are serious about being trans. Presenting as female in the past doesn't mean they can't be. Maybe it's a vicious cycle - you don't want to believe it because they have never presented in a masculine way but they don't want to because you haven't wanted to believe them. Why are you so closed off to the possibility? You sound somewhat afraid to be honest. What are you actually going to lose if your child is trans? Using a male name and pronouns isn't in itself a huge change, it's just altering a few letters and a few sentences. Your child isn't getting their name legally changed yet. I can understand you feeling confused and frustrated but so, no doubt, is your child. You don't have to agree in your own mind, but to support your child by using their prefered name and pronouns would be a huge deal for them and could well bring your relationship closer again.

Good luck and hugs to both of you.

[WankingMonkey]

Obviously you need to support your child unconditionally in the meantime. But this does not mean accepting that they are, or should be, or can ever be, the opposite sex. And I am really worried that society now tells its this is the way to go. This is the only reason people feel the need to be referred to as 'he' or 'she'. Because of societys boxes...

[WankingMonkey]

She does not have to fit into a box though, but todays 'norms' insist she does. 'Gender' is not a thing in reality. gender is just someone personality and years of socialization. Because the new 'boxes' state that an effeminate boy must actually be a girl and such...its just more boxes. Allow your daughter to express herself however she wishes. This does not mean she is the opposite sex and to play along with the idea that it does is damaging.

Sex dysphoria is another thing entirely, and again nothing to do with 'gender'. This is feeling the need for the body of the opposite sex.

Gender is bullshit and should be called out as such.

Accepting that a (for example) boy who likes to wear dresses, and is effeminate in nature...is actually a girl...is just so wrong. He is simply a boy, who likes to wear dresses and is effeminate in nature. Peddling the 'you can change your sex' lie is not the road to go down. Ask the many transsexual people who feel they have been sold a lie and completely 'physically' transition into the body of their chosen sex only to find out it was not needed and all that was needed was to be accepted as the person they really were.

A lifetime of hormones and surgery is not what anyone should wish for their children.

We need to move AWAY from neat little boxes, and the way things are now is as far from moving away as it possibly could be. Allow kids to be kids, allow them to wear and act however they wish even if this is 'stereotypically' not the 'norm'. This is simply them showing who THEY personally are. Saying that they are actually the opposite sex because of how they are...is basically telling them that the only way to really be who they are is to resign themselves to a lifetime of hormones and medical intervention. Its not right.

[Mysecretgarden]

So Your dsdhas to fit in the box. If she does not you will feel an unworthy mother. Feel that you have gone wrong, as my your self if your husband was man enough or too manly, feel that you somehow messed up as a mother. But it is not about you.
She Is questioning who she is. Give her room to explore herself, it is not for you to decide what she feel inside. Maybe you should look on the BACP website at private counsellor profile and not wait for CAHMS. And maybe you and your husband need some support too.

[Stopmakingsense]

We are dealing with the same issue with my DD, now 18. She has now gone to uni with her male name and I am scared witless that she will be welcomed open armed into the trans community where questioning is not allowed and you are never allowed to escape. It is exactly like belonging to cult, except this one is supported by the establishment. She actually believes she is a boy, so it is pointless having a rational argument. I am praying that the GP's up there have some clue as to what is going on.
She is probably on the autistic spectrum and has been suffering from severe anxiety. Surely this must all be about using control - in the same way an eating disorder is?
The one thing I have to say is that despite all the terror and worry it is really, really important that your child has your unwavering, unconditional love, and knows that. Rejection might be even more damaging than the standard treatment, so please don't let this ruin your relationship with her. We have tried to remain neutral, we avoid using pronouns at all, which is like walking a tightrope. We have only said that this is something she needs to work out for herself, but that we do not want her to do anything irreversible before she has fully matured - early to mid twenties. There is a small chance that in the end that gender reassignment is the answer for her, and will be successful. Or much more likely that she is suffering from a delusion which has complex origins and requires skillful therapy, and that gender reassignment will have devastating ling term consequences. Unfortunately, I am not at all confident that she will be offered (or even accept) that therapy, and while she is on the waiting list for the gender clinic her delusion will continue to be reinforced. We have to wait and see. Good luck OP - you are not alone.

[Cagliostro]

I agree the ASD should be looked into.

But TBH I think if she is wanting to come out then you should let her (not that you can really 'let' her as she's 18)

[FATEdestiny]

I know trans is nothing to to with sexuality, homo or otherwise. I don't suggest they are the same.

My point was the reaction if your daughter "came out".

[WankingMonkey]

Imagine telling your daughter who comes out as gay that she is being ridiculous because this doesn't confirm with biology?

That would be false though. And trans is fuck all to do with LGB. Those are sexualities. Not entirely sure why T gets lumped in with them, and many gay people do not believe the T belongs either.

[WankingMonkey]

They have said this is not a mental health issue but a physical health issue.

This seems an odd thing to say? How can this be a physical health issue. I don't understand at all?

[corythatwas]

Not sure I expressed my first post very well. I do see the problems of allowing somebody else to redefine "woman" (or in this case, I suppose, man), and I certainly see the point that a lot of the current focus on gender/sex is because we are moving towards an increasingly narrow and polarised view of male/female.

(My dd, who works in catering, was berated by a customer the other day for putting pink marshmallows on a drink intended for his little boy. I ask you!-bloody marshmallows!- they only come in a white and pink mix! But apparently they turn you gay or you have to trans before you can drink them or something.)

At the same time, in the OP's case, we are talking about a young insecure only-just adult. Surely there might be ways in which the OP can tactfully dodge the subject and make her dsd feel accepted as a person without committing herself to anything she does not agree with? Just to keep channels of communication open.

[NotAnotherTransThread]

#8

[WinchesterWoman]

MN is not transphobic. This place has the most rational critique and understanding of the trans issue than anywhere on the Internet. I use the word rational advisedly. Some might think it's so coldly rational that it's blunt or unkind. But what you get here are facts and clarity, rather than uninformed opinion ( on one side at least).

[FeliciaJollygoodfellow]

Gay and trans are not the same thing. Not even close. Don't try and usurp gay hate crime and homophobia and shoehorn trans into it.

OP I hope you find a happy middle ground. I wouldn't be at all happy if this were happening in my family - I'm very strongly gender critical and I just don't think I'd be able to support it.

[AltheaThoon]

Audrey you're very respectful of the op's dsd by referring to them with their chosen pronouns. Much less respectful of posters who wish not to be called cis. We've been women for centuries. Please don't try to redefine us now. We're non 'not trans'. We're women.

Sorry op, I don't have any words of wisdom. It must be very difficult for you.

[FATEdestiny]

Mumsnet is THE MOST TRANSPHOBIC forum I know.

This issue must be so damaging to the MN brand. I actually agree with the feminist rhetoric on the subject, but the vulgar way help and support threads on this matter progress is vile.

Imagine telling your daughter who comes out as gay that she is being ridiculous because this doesn't confirm with biology?

Anyway, I digress. I agree that if girls were able to "be a boy" to any degree they liked, while still living thier female body, then there would be no transgender issue.

However the real problem for the OP is the request by her daughter to be called "he", "his", "him" etc. I would find that difficult and saddening if my daughter asked that of me. I would hope she could do, say, wear what she likes while still being a "she".

But I wouldn't be disrespectful to her. If she wanted the male pronoun then I would respect my childs wishes. I would not be dismissing her.

[Nakupenda]

Haven't RTFT as I've read enough on this topic today.

All I'll say is you absolutely will lose her if you don't start supporting her and helping her through whatever this is, whether she is genuinely going to transition or whether she just needs some time to explore her options and figure things out.
You're being a truly crap parent right now by finding her struggle laughable & no matter what path she goes down she'll never forget it/

[WinchesterWoman]

God.

If there are four times more transgender people but only half as much again 'transphobic crime' then the rate of crime against transgender people has gone down.

Flaming Nora.

[audreyharley]

Anyway, as I said, this isn't an argument thread. Goodluck OP I hope you choose to be supportive to your son.

[WinchesterWoman]

If this muddy understanding of the subject is widespread it's no wonder the Borg has taken such a hold.

[audreyharley]

Winchester, just because some people are becoming more accepting of it doesn't mean the hate crime is going down. Do you get that?

[MephistoMarley]

you are a cisgendered person, because that's what the word means, thanks

No. Wrong.

[audreyharley]

Well since you said that gay and transgendered bullying issues isn't a thing anymore have some more facts:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/figures-reveal-a-shocking-rise-in-homophobic-hate-crimes-a6692991.html
www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html?_r=0
76crimes.com/100s-die-in-homophobic-anti-gay-attacks-statistics-updates/

There's more, go do some research. Oh and remember that tragedy like just last month that was specifically on gay people? Yeah me too.