DFs daughter

[roking]

Not really sure what I'm looking for here. I'm just running out of patience. Today has been particularly bad which is what has prompted me to post

I've been with my fiancé for 5 years now. We moved in together around 3 years ago. I have a 13yo daughter from a previous relationship and he has 2 daughters from his marriage who are 12 and 7. We have the girls 50/50 and would be very happy if it wasn't for his eldest daughter. There are absolutely no problems with the little one. She is an absolute angel. She is kind, funny, helpful and generally a joy to have around.

His eldest, is the complete opposite of her sister. She goes out of her way to cause trouble and wind people up. Everything has to be her way or life isn't worth living for the people around her.

She is very competitive with my daughter, everything they do is a competition and she always has to "win". She does things like counting the likes they have on Tiktok/Instagram and creates new accounts to like all her own posts to make sure she has more. She creates accounts dedicated to her pets to do this, she even has an Instagram account for her grandmas dog (I'm not joking) simply so she can like all her own posts. She takes and hides my daughters things all the time, then they miraculously reappear with a completely fabricated elaborate story of how she "found" them. Everything my daughter gets she has something bad to say about it, or knows someone who has the same thing and said it was rubbish

She also constantly deliberately breaks tings that belong to her sister and my daughter

She is horrible to her little sister. She screams and shouts at her 24/7. She constantly tells her she is stupid and everything she says is wrong. Everytime they pass each other she hits, kicks or punches her but if her sister dares to retaliate she screams the place down that her little sister is bullying her

She buts in when anyone is talking and constantly talks over people because she thinks she is right all the time. If you tell her to be quiet she just keeps taking, or gets louder and louder until you can't hear yourself think.

She thinks she has the right to make all the decisions in our house, from what we are eating, to what films we watch or who sits where in the car. She even tries to control what order people have a bath in and will have a major strop when she is told she doesn't get to make those decisions. It's exhausting

She has always been like this but is getting worse. I have tried everything to sort this out. I have spoken to her to see how she was feeling. It didn't help. I have put time aside each week to take her places one on one. It didn't help. I have taken her and my daughter to get nails/make up done while the little one went swimming with her dad. It didn't help. Her dad has spent untold amounts of time with her just the 2 of them. It didn't help.

My fiancé won't do anything about it. He says it's just the way she is but he has always favoured his eldest over her little sister and refuses to see any bad in her. it's causing major issues in our house and it can't continue. I'm at the end of my tether, my daughter is at breaking point and the little one said to me today that she wishes she could just have one day where her sister wasn't there so that no one would hit her or shout at her 😔 She is 7 years old! She should not be feeling like that

Any ideas?

[Elsiebear90]

I think it’s really hard to say what’s going on without being there, but either way, she sounds like a deeply unhappy child craving attention in the worst ways and I think you would all benefit from some counselling and getting her evaluated. I think it’s definitely possible that a lot of this may stem from being automatically seen as the “bad/naughty child” because she’s loud and excitable (and annoying) compared to her younger sister.

I think she may be playing the “role she’s been given” so to speak, and she will find it really hard to stop and you will also find it very hard to change your opinion and expectations of her. It’s a double edged sword really, her bad behaviour reinforces everyone’s negative opinion of her which fuels her behaviour even more. I’m not sure if her personality is just annoying to some people or if she does have a personality disorder which makes her hard to be around and is the root cause of this behaviour. I would urge you to seek some help though for all of your sakes.

[Butterymuffin]

he thought if he fought her corner it would give her reassurance that she is loved and wanted

I get that he does this when she's in trouble, but is he doing anything else to make her feel loved? Does he spend time talking to her, does he ask about her interests and try to share them, did he take her anywhere for them to do things together just the two of them before lockdown? Because it sounds like he jumps in when things get heated but I'm not clear what he does during calmer spells to help with the problem. Is he prepared to 'love bomb' her? What ideas does he have, that he's prepared to put time and effort into himself?

[roking]

@butterymuffin he has spent untold amounts of time one on one with her. By rights it should be DSD2 acting up through lack of dedicated time spent with her as she's the one who suffers most in this area

DF and DSD1 have a lot in common. They also have a shared interest in Marvel/DC Comics and they often go to comic book shops, or watch films together, they also went to to a convention last year just the 2 of them . When she is just with him she is a delight. He has a very good relationship with her one on one. It's just when other people are added in the mix it is falling apart

[Electrical]

Christ this sounds like an exhausting way to choose to live. Is this what you dreamed of? Do you need to drag all these kids into your relationship ? Why not just date the lazy daddy and enjoy your life?

[Abraid2]

She thinks she has the right to make all the decisions in our house, from what we are eating, to what films we watch or who sits where in the car. She even tries to control what order people have a bath in and will have a major strop when she is told she doesn't get to make those decisions. It's exhausting


Learn About Oppositional Defiant Disorder
Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) is a childhood disorder that is defined by a pattern of hostile, disobedient, and defiant behaviors directed at adults or other authority figures. ODD is also characterized by children displaying angry and irritable moods, as well as argumentative and vindictive behaviors. While all children will display some type of defiant behavior throughout their growing years, children suffering from ODD will display such behaviors much more commonly than that of any other type of behaviors. For these kids, it can seem like nothing can be done to make them happy. These children will not only do things to purposely cause conflict or to purposely annoy the people around them, but they will oftentimes place the blame on others.

[roking]

@Electrical that's not really helpful is it?

The issue with his daughter has nothing at all to do with my relationship?

[SandyY2K]

I'd also add that the she does this to het attention. She's used to ppl ignoring her, so any attention, even for doing wrong....puts her in the spotlight.

I'm the one who suggested the games... just to add...I hope your DF isn't overly competitive, so you can allow them to win at least one game and see them celebrate as a team.

My DH would never let our girls win anything...he's much too competitive.

It must be difficult for her seeing her younger sister preferring to spend time with your DD... I understand it's as a result of her behaviour though.

[LittleFoxKit]

I actually agree CCTV in the public areas eg kitchen, landing showing bedroom doors etc, but dont let the kids know. As if they dont know then you will get evidence of who's drinking the last pop, or eating all the particular flavour yogurts. If the kids dont know very likely you would catch dsd1 with makeup brushes in hand, or going into the other bedrooms when she shouldn't be.
If you dp needs solid evidence then you will be able to provide it and hopefully he will be willing to be more proactive when its definate.

[sadpapercourtesan]

I think family therapy for all of you is the best way to tackle this. The dynamics are so complicated and this child is trapped in them just as much as the rest of you are. It's unrealistic to expect a 12 year old to be able to change so much by herself - not just her behaviour but her self-concept, her place within the family, the patterns of relating and assigning responsibility that you have ALL fallen into together.

Family therapy is hard. It's bruising and painful and embarrassing. We have been through it because our eldest had some acute mental health problems that were too much for us to cope with on our own. We hated most of it, we felt judged and threatened and it was horrible. But we kept going and kept working at it and our child is much, much happier and more settled, and we understand him and our family a lot better.

In normal times, a trip to the GP to ask for a CAMHS referral would be the way forward. It was easier for us because our child ended up in hospital having a emergency assessment.

[dontdisturbmenow]

He said that part is just her personality, he doesn't want to dampen that spirit and he feels like everyone is beating her down all the time and no one ever reacts positively to anything she does
Your oh has a lot of insight, what an amazing person he must be. And you seem to be an excellent listener and able to consider your own actions. Not surprising you have an amazing relationship.

Saying that, I agree that it is most likely just her personality. I have a cousin who was just like this. Pushy, borderline bullying, always wanted to be right, extremely competitive. I didn't enjoy being in her company because she always made me feel self conscious and anxious. Her parents had issues with her at school, answering to her teachers and despite being quite clever, never managed to do well because she took it upon herself to not do as she was told.

She is now 53 and at the head of a very successful company that employs over 100 people. She never went to Uni, she started working as a carer (we all laughed) but somehow did very well and by the time she was 25, she was the manager of the home she'd started with. 5 years later, she studied at night, gain her qualification and started her business at 32, growing it year after year.

As for her personality? She absolutely Lovely, really caring, fun and known to be fair employer. She says she is embarrassed at how she was as a kid. She says that things turned around for her when she became assistant manager and was put in a position to manage and lead where she felt comfortable. People respected her confidence and self assurance and she gradually melted down and became a nice person.

There's hope for your dsd, but yeah, a pain to live with until tgen.!

[LittleFoxKit]

Ooo okay I just rtft.

If shes a delight just 121 with your DP could it be that because he dosent get on her case constantly she dosent feel the need to play up?
It's kinda like the mentality everyone expects you to be bad so you might as well be bad?

I think clear boundaries need to be put in place, but any telling off or discipline should include, we still and will always love you no matter what you do, but we are upset/hurt by ..... because....
So it reaffirms she is loved and wanted, as although we know you love all the kids, sometimes kids cant always tell/don't feel it if they feel they are constantly being told off.

I also usually absolutely hate suggesting things like this.. but her behaviour really resonated with.my behaviour as a child and others whom I have had contact with, and could should possibly have adhd? It presents very differently in females, and often leads to a lack of emotion regulation eg being too enthusiastic/excitable or being angry and irritable which dosent seem appropriate at the moment. It can also lead to misinterpreting the actions of those around eg cus they sound ALOT they dont want me, and lack of behaviour inhibition eg punching, annoying her siblings even though she knows deep down it will result in a negative response?

[LittleFoxKit]

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[Butterymuffin]

Ok, that's great that he does a lot with her. In that case, though, it seems odd to me that he says no one ever gives her positive attention - he must know that he does, he must know that he gives her a lot of one-to-one time. Does he genuinely not realise this? Is it then that because Dad never tells her off, she thinks that all is fine because Dad is happy with her and the rest of you are being overly harsh and whinging about nothing much? In which case he needs to accept that parenting her is about making her feel unconditionally loved BUT also putting discipline in place and ensuring that everyone in the family is fair to everyone else.

[HeckyPeck]

to be fair to her, they did tell her to get out of the room last night. She was watching videos on her phone and laughing really loudly at the videos while they were trying to watch the film. So they told her to get out and wouldn't let her back in

She then came down stairs and started the video watching /very loud laughing in the living room where I was watching telly and I asked her to turn it down. She turned it down for a few minutes and then turned it back up again but claimed she hadn't turned it back up. I then told her to go and watch the videos elsewhere. That's when she went in and started on her sister

Do you think you’re guilty of making excuses for her sometimes too?


You start with “to be fair” but then from what you’ve described she is entirely at fault. Playing loud videos on your phone when people are watching a film is completely unacceptable. Your DD and DSD rightly told her to go away and as a result she ends up whipping DSD with a towel. The only one to blame there is her.

Did she get any consequence out of interest?

[HeckyPeck]

Not having a go OP btw in case that came across wrong!

[roking]

@butterymuffin he was meaning no one except him gives her positive attention. He said it was the reason he wouldn't give her negative attention, because she got plenty of that elsewhere but he was the only one that was positive towards her

@heckypeck didn't come across as having a go at all. maybe I do make excuses for her actually. I'm trying to see it from all angles to try and try to be fair to everyone.

Something needs to change though. My stomach is churning at the thought of having this talk with her later. A 12 year old should not have the power to make me feel like this

[Butterymuffin]

But she gets negative attention from others because she's unpleasant to them! She gets what she gives. I think he's not fulfilling his parental responsibilities here and he needs to step up and find a way of doing the 'I love you but right now I don't like you / your behaviour' that a pp wrote about earlier. He sounds like he hates the thought of being the bad guy but that's just displacing the problem onto the rest of you.

[HeckyPeck]

Good luck for the talk later. I hope it is productive 💕

[247SylviaPlath]

@humanvision123 - this is where I got to with my similar issue in terms of thinking...

Op - you are in the hardest of positions, I’m sorry I don’t have more helpful advice, but am sending you a virtual hug (even though I hate physical ones!) - the stomach churn is the worst. No you should not have to feel this way.

It’s incredibly difficult to explain to people who haven’t lived the dynamic of step families in some way how hard it is -most often for the kids involved but for the adults too - once you join families walking away should be the very last resort yet it’s often cited that if it isn’t working and you’re in a step family, just leave. As the op says, sometimes this is the only family the kids have known.

It’s also difficult for people who have not come across some of the behaviours discussed here directly to understand that love bombing etc won’t work for all kids.

In my case, we tried it, but she doesn’t seem to see other people as people - this is the fundamental thing. I’m not a psychologist so in no position to diagnose anyone but I know what I witnessed, and so does my husband. We had Camhs involved who glossed over the behavioural element to focus on what she presented them, which was a non existent eating disorder which was then diagnosed as not serious (of course not, it was made up) and considered their job done. Great distraction technique from her to be fair! I feel sorry for her because she doesn’t have any meaningful relationships with anyone (they were always superficial with both parents under their own admission), but I think that’s because she doesn’t need them in that sense.

for it all. Life’s short and spending it in constant conflict is hard on anyone.

[Hill1991]

What is she like at school or around other family members children does she act out all the time or is it just at home?

Also good luck with your talk hope it goes well for you all.

[EdwinaMay]

You need to have an honest chat or three with DF - he sounds geeky rather than noisy so why was he ignored and /or picked on as a child. He needs to work out why his childhood was as it was. I was ignored, imv, during my childhood but I had two much older brothers very close in age who were always more interesting to talk to , doing more interesting things than me and my brother, not blaming anyone, we are quiet loners. The DBs the opposite.
And if you can get DF to understand his bias it would make a big difference. I would even include DD1 in the explanation because if his behaviour is influencing her to be as she is, which I bet it is, she will understand this and knowing DF had a difficult childhood could create a bond but an honest. one between them and they could work on it together.

[Neolara]

It sounds very much as if the solution lies with your DH and until he appreciates there is a problem and imposes some boundaries, I suspect things will stay the same. Family therapy may help if you can persuade him to attend.

[roking]

Hi all, thank you for all the responses

@sylviaplath247 that exactly how I feel, walking away would be the ultimate last option. In my eyes you don't just throw in the towel when things get tough.

Our chat actually went well and everyone managed to stay calm. We started off with just me DF and DSD1, ended up with her mum on speakerphone for most of it and then she asked for my DD to come down.

We started by saying we were worried about her and that we were going to make an appointment with the doctor to see if there was anyone she could speak to. She said she doesn’t want that and do we think she’s a psycho? 🙄

She admitted she is very jealous of DSD2. She said it hurts her that everyone likes her little sister so much more than her. She said everyone is always happy to see her sister, but no one is happy to see her.

She says people are always hugging and kissing her sister. Which is true. DSD2 is very tactile and if she is anywhere near you she has to be touching you somehow or hugging you or wanting to sit on you or be picked up. It’s just the way she is. DSD1 is not like that at all and does not like hugs. She said that herself tonight that she doesn’t like hugging but it makes her jealous when people hug her sister

She said everyone’s attention is always on DSD2 first. Which could also be true because as soon as you/they arrive DSD2 will run straight to you for a hug so your attention automatically goes straight to her (she isn’t being malicious, she is just a happy bubbly child that likes people)

From a few other things she said it sounds as though she is actually jealous of her sister’s personality in general. DSD2 is a people person, can chat to anyone and is always bubbly and happy. We told her that everyone is different, everyone is their own person and that is fine, but what isn’t fine is how she is behaving at the moment. Her personality isn’t an excuse to go out of her way to upset people

She said she feels like she is nobody’s favourite person and no one really cares if she is there or not. In the family, her mum and her boyfriend are each other’s favourites, me and DF are each other’s favourites and my Dd and DSD2 are each other’s favourites but she feels like she isn’t anyone’s favourite. We reassured her that we love them all the same and that we don’t have favourites but that’s the way she sees it.

We kept getting the point over that we all loved her very much, but we don't like her behaviour at the moment

She said she keeps thinking about how happy she was when it was just her, DF and her mum at Bond Street (house they had before DSD2 was born) this made me realise that she is the only one out of our 3 kids that has actually “been through” her parents splitting up and can remember life before it happened. I was never with my ex (DDs dad) so she has never known us to be a couple, she has always had us separate and DSD2 was only a baby when DF and their mum split so she doesn’t remember any of it. All she remembers is our family being the way it is just now.

DSD1 does feel excluded by my DD and DSD2, she said she used to like it when they were younger, having a sister basically the same age and she liked that they would do things together but now DSD2 is bigger and has joined them, she feels pushed out and that they don’t include her in things. They stick up for each other and will back each other up on things to make it so that she is always wrong and they are right, even if one of them has to lie (I wasn’t aware of this, or if it even happens but I have noted it and will watch)

She said they always decide things just the 2 of them (what to do etc) and then she has to ask to be included or to join them

She said she breaks their things because when they exclude her she feels like they shouldn’t be able to do these things if they won’t let her join in.

I was trying to tread very gently while fully getting across the point that the reason they exclude her is because of the way she treats them

She gave the makeup brushes back. She said she took them so that my DD would have to come looking for them.

She admitted to eating the yoghurts, she said she was getting back at DSD2 and said she put the crisp packets on the floor to wind my DD up as they weren't talking to her. She is still adamant that it was her own can she drank tho

She said that she feels like everything she does is wrong and that even when she is doing something right, she does it the wrong way and ends up getting told off anyway. She said she is fed up being the bad one and that no one ever gives her a chance to explain. She is just always automatically wrong, or to blame and no one questions it

She blew up a few weeks ago at her mums, they ended up having a screaming argument and her mum took her phone and sent her to her room but she said the reason she blew up was because her mum shouted at her for ignoring her when she wasn’t ignoring her. She said she could hear her mum talking but didn’t register what her mum had said because at the same time her mums boyfriend was trying to show her something on his phone and her sister was trying to get the boyfriends attention too. Everyone was talking at the one time, her attention was already on her mums boyfriend so she looked at his phone rather than answering her mum and it escalated from there but she wasn't given a chance to explain that and never is

She said that when her mum and sister fall out, her sister goes to her room to calm down then their mum goes up and they make friends, but when it’s her, she just gets left in her room. No one comes to see her, ask if she’s ok or ask her side of things. Her mum said she thought that was what DSD1 wanted because anytime she goes near her too soon after they have argued it escalates and they end up arguing again

She brought up some things that I didn’t even give a 2nd thought to. 2 of the plastic cups they take drinks to bed with them in melted (stupid me put them in the dishwasher) so I bought 2 new ones shaped like pineapples to replace the melted ones. She said DD has one of them and DSD2 has the other one, she didn’t get one and why did I only buy for the other 2. I honestly never even thought about it at the time. The cups all just live in the cupboard and they grab the first one that comes to hand each night. There isn’t normally specific cups for a person. I just bought 2 cups to replace the ones that melted.

DFs mum also handed in a bag with slime kits, baking stuff and other bits in if for them all to do during lockdown. DSD1 says there was only 2 of each thing in the bag. There was loads of stuff tho and I never really paid attention to what came out of it. I put the baking stuff in the kitchen and DSD2 took the rest upstairs. DF called his mum and she said that yes, she had bought 2 of everything but she had been meaning for them all to do the activity together. she thought one kit wouldn’t have enough bits in it for the 3 of them so bought the 2nd kit to be used as spare materials. DSD1 has taken it as her being left out tho

She said she feels like no one respects her but she knows she probably doesn’t deserve it due to the way she goes on

When my DD came down she said something about DSD2 being scared of DSD1 and she became very upset. She said she didn't realise her sister was scared of her and she doesn't want her sister to feel like that about her

She says she finds the constant arguing and drama within her friendship group very draining. She said she doesn’t know where she stands half the time, she is never sure who is or isn’t speaking to who as it changes so much and she is constantly scared to say the wrong thing incase she says it to the wrong person and she ends up being fallen out with herself. She knows it isn’t healthy but she doesn’t want to be left on her own or have the whole drama of walking away from them all and having them all then united against her (there are around 12 girls in this group)

We said she doesn’t have to do the whole dramatic falling out with them thing. She can start speaking to other people and gradually be less available when she makes other friends

Her school has clubs at lunchtime so when they go back we are going to look into her joining some of them so that at least then she will get a chance to mix with some other kids and spend less time with this group at school

We are going to have a family meeting today, set some ground rules for everyone in the house and wipe the slate clean. Her mum is going to do the same thing at hers when they go back there tomoro. I'm going to try the game thing tonight, put all the girls in the same team and letting them win. Try to build some bridges between them

It sounds as though she is just feeling beaten down by life, she is unhappy at school and at home and wasnt getting a break from it.

We reassured her continually that she is loved and wanted very much, and that it’s her behaviour recently that we have an issue with, not her

We really need to work on building her self esteem

I am going to keep an eye on it tho and DF knows he needs to step up. He also didn't know that DSD2 was scared of her sister. I think that shocked him a bit. I'm not expecting miracles over night, but if it doesn't improve her mum is taking her to the doctors to see if there is anyone she can speak to

[EdwinaMay]

Great discussion. DD1 given the chance to talk about it all. Well done.
I would ignore the 'she doesn't like hugs' and hug her lots though. So should everyone else.

[StartupRepair]

You sound like such a lovely step mum and mum and it sounds as if you really gave her space to talk and be listened to.