Poisoned apple, anybody? DSD, 21, and debt

[Nettletheelf]

I'm a stepmum to a 21 year old girl and an 18 year old boy. Their dad and I have been married for seven years.

Both are at university. I love them both, but it hasn't always been easy. DH spoiled them after his divorce so they acquired some grabby/wheedling tendencies, which DSS has pretty much grown out of.

DSD is repeating her third year at university. It's a long course. She texted DH today saying the following:

1. She had £5 to last until 31 December.
   

1. She can't get a job because she has to study too hard.
   

1. She couldn't afford to buy Christmas presents.
   

1. Could she have some money please?
   

He called me at work, upset and keen to discuss it tonight. In the interest of full disclosure:

1. DSD chose to study in Scotland, where courses are longer.
   

1. DSD goes on the university ski trip every year. Average cost: £1500.
   

1. She gets a full loan plus a bursary of £2k per year and £150 per month from us.
   

1. She went to Paris last month, and to Oslo for the weekend in October.
   

1. She travels 200 miles by train regularly to see her boyfriend.
   

1. DSD inherited £10k from her grandmother last year, and spent it travelling the world this summer.
   

I'm not unsympathetic to her financial problems, and my suggestion to DH is that we give her a one off gift of cash to tide her over, with the downside that she has to answer some difficult questions and face up to reality. I feel that we'd be doing her a favour. Tough love.

I particularly want her to tell us what was going through her mind when she booked the skiing holiday, which she must have known she couldn't pay for, and why she found it advisable to visit Oslo, notorious for being one of the most expensive cities in the world. I'd also like her to tell us how she plans to manage her money from now on.

At the risk of sounding like an old gimmer, I didn't go on skiing holidays when I was a student. I couldn't afford it, and I knew it, so it never even entered my mind.

DH, on the other hand, wants to up the amount we give her each month. I disagree; I think that would be enabling bad behaviour, and she won't learn from it.

He thinks that my suggestion of giving her a one off helping hand with strings attached (the strings are, having the hard word from us to the effect that she can't afford to go skiing until she's earning a proper salary, that she'll have to rein back the expensive travel until she can afford it and that we want her to think hard about how silly she was to blow her entire inheritance instead of saving some of it) is cruel and 'having a go'.

Who is right? Am I a cruel stepmother? I thought that the answer was obvious: "cut your coat according to your cloth, and realise that we're not always going to bankroll you".

[Nettletheelf]

Oh yes, and her mum doesn't help financially. She was a SAHM when she was married to DH and now does a not very well paid admin job. No mortgage, though, and DH paid her generous maintenance when the children were living at home. DH thinks that his ex could afford to contribute - she lives with her partner, for whom she left DH - but purposely won't because she thinks that money should be DH's problem.

[MaybeDoctor]

Oh dear.
I think the problem might be more than DSD.

I do believe that students should get the opportunity to have a bit of travel/enjoyment in vacations - those times don't come again. But it has to be balanced and in the context of what can be afforded and what is normal to spend.

Put it this way, my DH and I have not spent £10k per adult head on holidays this year and we earn well into six figures. It all sounds a bit 'Made in Chelsea' to me.

Most of all she has to pass this year of her studies, otherwise the party is over.

[Asteria36]

Oh dear! So the exW and the daughter both regard DH as a cash-cow and he goes along with it? Frustrating though it is, you may be fighting a losing battle.
Irrespective of reasons for divorce, fathers especially seem to be filled with guilt - probably because they see so much less of their children after separation. Your DH has clearly found that he gains the love and approval of his dd if he payrolls her and, unfortunately, to stop that now would put him in a position where she may reject him. It is a tricky little "love me" dance that many divorcee fathers of daughters seem to do - I would imagine without even realising that it is happening.
My DH does it with his dd, despite being considerably tougher with his DS. It drives me nuts. She emotionally manipulates him (at the tender age of 10!!) almost as much as his exW does and he bows and scrapes to it every time.

[Bananasinpyjamas1]

Yep, rings bells here too! Also, probably why your DSD is pulling the purse strings and not the DSS - my DP's Ex also exactly the same, has a house with no mortgage curtesy of DP - and regularly tells her daughters to expect DP to pay for everything - mothers are a role model for their daughters. And DP takes it. He also sometimes just cuts me completely out of the picture when his DSDs demand things that are over the top.

I'm not sure there is much you can do OP, as you'll get the brunt of your DPs anger about the situation. I'm also really mad at my DP as I write because he's just poured out all of his fustration onto me about his daughters not bothering to call unless they want money/a lift. Oh god, being a SM is so thankless and so out of our control!

[Nettletheelf]

It is reassuring to know that I'm not the only one.

My DH also regularly complains that his kids only call him when they want stuff.

He's a clever man, so I don't know why he puts up with this nonsense. He seems to have a complete blind spot when it comes to DSD in particular, and she exploits it. DSD and DSS are with us for Christmas this year; DSD has gone vegan (I KNOW) so I'm running myself ragged trying to find vegan food for Christmas Day.

Today, DH agreed to give DSD £500 and has suggested a "budgeting session" over Christmas. Which will be nothing more than DSD telling us why she simply must have more money from us each month.

DH also announced that because DSD and DSS didn't want to go on holiday with us any more after they were 16, we owe them 'back pay' for family holidays we haven't paid for!!! So he thinks that we should hand them a pile of cash each year in lieu of taking them on holiday they are 18 and 21, when will we stop paying for them?

[Bananasinpyjamas1]

Oh no!

And your DH wonders why they just call him when they want something?! He'd be better off checking to see if DSD is on course to complete her degree, spending time not money on her.

[Asteria36]

Irrespective of affordability, the notion of back pay in lieu of family holidays is utterly nonsensical. Is this coming from shared monies or does your DH have his own accounts to dip into? If it is shared I would be marching off into the sunset with my half.

[TracyBarlow]

FIVE HUNDER QUID?! WTF would she need £500 for between now and the end of December? Surely she'll be home from uni in a week or so anyway and won't need anything then?

I have three kids and Christmas between now and then and I don't need £500.

I'm quite a soft parent. I know teenagers make mistakes with money and, to an extent, it's our jig as parents to dust them down and help them pick up the pieces. But £500 is taking the piss, I'd be absolutely furious with my husband if he did that. Furious.

[Wdigin2this]

Oh dear, I recognise this ploy, and 'the love me dance' is a good phrase! I warn you now Nettle, if your DH continues down this road, it will be a behaviour which will become set in stone, and she will probably never relinquish the role of financially dependant daughter!
As I sigh know only too well!!

[Nettletheelf]

Noted. I suspect we'll still be paying for her when she's 25.

Because we're married, the money is technically shared but we have our own bank accounts as well as a joint account. His bailing out definitely comes from his own account.

I have warned him that he won't be sponging off me when he's retired, if he pours his cash into propping up irresponsible kids. I'd like him to stop, though. When you're a stepmother, which we all know is difficult, you're in it for the good and bad times. So if you're doing the work and paying for presents, for example, then your opinion needs to be considered when dealing with situations like this.

You might like this: DH girded his loins enough to ask DSD why and how she blew the full £10k inheritance travelling. Response: "I just didn't think". Why did she sign up for a skiing holiday she can't afford? "I like skiing". Subtext: "I knew that you would end up bailing me out so I just did what I wanted".

[lucymootoo]

At 21 I had graduated Uni having funded my self through (fees paid plus bursary). I lived in my own flat. And I had a job (and I did a very demanding course ....)

she needs to grow up.

[purpledasies]

Uni funding has proved a much more fraught issue in terms of step parenting and agreeing who's responsible for what than I'd expected. It really taps into a minefield of conflicting views of what a parent's responsibility extends to and where it ends. And like you we're dealing with DSC who are repeatedly told by their DM that their father's worth is solely to provide money

In the end DH has drafted out what looks like a legal document setting out our joint aims and principles of what we expect to pay for and what we don't. I didn't think it needed to be that complex but maybe it will help to have it all written down and agreed.

It's yet to be put to the test as DH initially started paying DSD1 a monthly amount that had turned out to be much more than she needs (as she got a grant and a bursary that we hadn't expected) so he now needs to discuss it all properly with her and reduce the monthly amounts. Not easy.

Am hoping the document we wrote out might help or at least make it simpler with the other DC/DSC.

[MeridianB]

Oh Lord, Nettle, he's got it bad.

He's a clever man, so I don't know why he puts up with this nonsense.

^ Guilt is SO powerful.

I can see why he wanted to speak to her alone and I get that he wanted to reassure her with 'focus on your studies' BUT...

£500 is a lot of money.Way too much to tide her over until the end of the month. What would her brother say? Is it worth letting slip to him so he can help shame her or would he just want money, too?

The holiday 'back pay' thing just takes my breath away. Did he come up with that? It's worse by far than any of the bailout nonsense. If he had thought of it at the time then maybe he could have thrown them a little bit of cash to enjoy on their non-family hols (although he probably did and just cannot remember!) but back-dating it? Lunacy.

You've had some great advice and well done for saying you won't bail him out in old age!

Have you and DH sorted wills out? opens can of worms

[Whoknewitcouldbeso]

I think you are going to have to hope she finds a rich partner in the future and the financial reins can be passed over to him.

I was raised by an extremely tight Father who gave me nothing and that was actually pretty damaging. He refused to give me 20 pence a week pocket money so I could save up for presents, so I always think generous parents are pretty special, there has to be a limit though and yes it sounds like DSS is taking the piss.

[Russellgroupserf]

Agree it's guilt.

The lightbulb changing comment! Good grief I would have gone spare at that one.

I would sit him down and consider showing him this thread, though I suppose it depends on him as a person as some people dislike their laundry aired online.

He is enabling her to remain like an infant and doing her no favours whatsoever. That's what he needs to understand, he is assisting her in not becoming a fully rounded adult.

My DS informed us once when he declined a dinner invite that we should give him the money we would have spent on his dinner. He was 13 at the time, short shrift was given. Who wouldn't try for free money if they could. It's become a habit that needs breaking.

[Boosiehs]

Holy crap batman!

I went travelling (career break so no hostels for me) for 3 months a few years ago, and managed to spend less than £4 grand on me and now DH!!! Including flights. How the flying fuck did she spend £10k?????

I went to a "posh" uni, and there was an element of keeping up with the rich kids. But a £1500 ski trip as well? Cripes.

I am entirely in agreement with you OP. As a student you must learn to live within your means. She sounds quite spoilt and grabby. Good luck with your DH!

[Wdigin2this]

And think about this Nettle, (and anyone else in a similar position) if this dependant and entitled behaviour is allowed to become the norm, (and it will because it's insidious) one day there may be grandchildren, and they too will see your DH as the go to person for all matters financial! Horror story...yes, but it can and will happen!

[MaybeDoctor]

I really do suggest sitting her down with the average graduate salary for what she does and taking her through rent, bills and the rest.

Her expectations are utterly unrealistic.

[Asteria36]

I put myself through Uni, with the odd food parcel from my father, and had to manage my financial expectations accordingly. A friend of mine was constantly asking for top-ups from his family and I remember his outrage when his father asked for a full breakdown (with bank statements to back it up) on what he had been spending his money on. He even had to calculate the amount spent on toothpaste per week. His father helped him, but was only willing to pay for the necessities. Anything above board/food/books etc was to come out of his own pocket.
Would DH be willing to sit down with his daughter and her bank statements for the last 6 months so that she can explain where her money has gone? She can then work out what she needs versus what she wants with him.
i know it is a little underhand, but how about telling DH that you are happy to financially support her? Suggest you all sit down and go through her recent accounts so that you can work out her expenditure and then formulate a regular allowance that will accommodate that - meaning she doesn't need to call for top ups all the time. (Or at least that is the line you can feed to make it more likely that she will relinquish bank statements). Hopefully they will both be relieved that you are on-side and dsd will happily offer full disclosure (thinking that you will both then give her more money) at which point your DH will probably get the shock of his life when he sees that she has been pissing her money up the wall buying clothes and clubbing. You haven't had to nag and cajole, which skirts around the wicked stepmother routine nicely.
I know it is a bit manipulative, but sometimes the situation needs approaching from a different angle. If you wade in berating everyone else for being so crap then they will be instantly defensive and deflect any blame onto you. Hopefully this way DH will have a lightbulb moment (not like the cockwomble moment he had with real light bulbs) and realise that his daughter is a spoiled leech.

[LaurieLemons]

I would offer to give her £150 in advance and not give it to her next month.

[GasLIghtShining]

Holiday pay back? Seriously? Thank god my DC do read mumsnet!

My DC are 20 & 17. We have paid for holidays if they come with us but when DC1 went on holiday at 18 with friend she paid for it. The next year she came with us and we paid. There are plenty of threads on here about holidays with posters saying basically 'after 18 they expect their DCs to pay for themselves even if going with the family so I think they would be hyperventilating at the thought of holiday payback.

My friend's DS managed to save for a holiday without having a job and not a huge monthly payment from parents

Sainsburys still do the student card. I hope the link works

www.sainsburysgifts.co.uk/meal_ticket_cards.html

However it sounds like DH will keep subsidising her nothing you say will change that.

[Nettletheelf]

Yes, the holiday back pay was DH's idea. Yes, it is insane. It's clear what's going on: he is determined to keep subsidising her, come what may, and is looking for reasons to justify it to me, however far fetched. I'm sure you're right that it's guilt.

Funny that somebody mentioned wills. We haven't done it yet, but it's very much on my to do list. DH will probably die first since he's older than me (macabre but realistic) but if I go first then NO WAY is my hard earned cash going to end up with my DSC. It will go to my family instead (DH and I don't have children; after several years of trying, we discovered that I'd left it too long).

I like the idea of going through the bank statements. I'd particularly like to know how she managed to blow ten grand travelling. I might try the suggested risky ploy!

I know that DH will shy away from asking her any kind of hard questions over Christmas. I can see that DSD is quite manipulative (I love her, but I'm not blind) but DH can't. I know that if he thought that he could get away with paying off what will be her £54k of tuition fees without my knowledge, he'd do it.

I don't want her to turn into the type of woman who relies on a man for money. I'm not like that, and I'm very glad about it. It would be a risky and unsettling way to live.

The warning about supporting grandchildren in the future is salutary!

Thanks for your input. So good to hear that I'm not completely out of step with common sense!

[FannyTheChampionOfTheWorld]

I'd leave out the bit about choosing to do a four year course, that sounds petty. Otherwise though, I'm much more with you than DH. Of course you want her to enjoy herself while she's young and unencumbered, but she does need to learn how to budget. You wouldn't be helping her by just giving her more money to burn through without needing to address the root of the problem. There is also the point about her studies too, she may need to spend the time she's currently using for travel to do extra work to ensure she passes.

[GasLIghtShining]

On the will side - make sure you do it. Make the appointment and if he doesn't want to come go on your own and sort yours out. Bearing in mind if he wants his DC to inherit something he will need a will as you are his wife and depending on the value of his estate they could get nothing.

Mnid you sounds like he is busy spending all the money while he is living!

[GasLIghtShining]

By the way there is a mumsnetter who is a will writer. User name is mumblechum and I think her firm is Marlow Wills - she advertises on here and many a mumsnetter have recommended her