Dyspraxia and seeing

[aloha]

Hi Saker!

Ok, can't post much tonight as off for dinner, but yes, ds doesn't follow a point at all well even now (4 in Sept) and will point very, very vaguely. He can't find ANYTHING - even stuff that's right in front of him, is hopeless with jigsaws as finds it so hard to see the pattern if it's not joined up...does any of this sound familiar? Do you think it's part of dyspraxia?

When I was a child my mother used to send me to fetch her handbag... I could never find it & she'd get irate when she went and found it easily. Thing is, I eventually figured out, I was always looking in a certain part of the room (say "low" in the room) where I expected handbag to be. But it was often on the table or higher up. And I would get a mental picture of what to look for (say a black handbag) when she had a blue handbag that day. So I had to retrain myself to look at all levels in the room (and even distances away from me), and to look for a different pattern of what a "handbag" was. I suppose I was around 12 when I figured all that out.

Dunno, that might help you all figure out if your child really has a problem. The more I read about dyspraxia the more I suspect i could have have/had it, but doesn't bother me. Anyway, I don't expect my children to find anything either, without very explicit descriptions of what it looks like and where to look.

Pamina - yup, that's my ds - can't open doors! And Singersgirl, the gait, the pedalling, recognise all that.
Zebra, I'd NEVER ask ds to find my handbag! It's more that his own shoes will be literally right next to his foot - even touching - and he won't be able to 'see' them! He will look around vaguely and when I point will not really be able to follow the point. It is very odd really.

Jenweber, it is so hard to find these people such as an OT with sensory experience. With the NHS you get who you get and even privately I haven't had much success in finding the right people.

My Ds2 is likely to have ORAL dyspraxia rather than verbal, related to the way his muscles work around his mouth so his speech is very unclear. But he also has a load of other language issues - I would love to know if these are separate from the dyspraxic symptons or relate to him not being able to organise his speech in the same way that he can't organise his actions. But no-one seems to be able to tell me that at the moment.

Likewise Ds2 can't ride a trike, can't even keep his feet on pedals when I push him, can't open doors, turn taps off, get undressed, use a spoon properly etc etc.

It's interesting though that although the kind of classic dyspraxic picture is of a child hitting all motor milestones late and not crawling etc everyone seems to have different experiences of this. In our case, Ds2 didn't sit up, weight bear, crawl or walk until right at the end of the normal range. But when he did crawl he was really fast and good at it and looked just like another child, none of this commando crawling. I have read stuff about dyspraxic children who walked early, like 9 months but still went on to have dyspraxia. I guess it must affect all children in different ways with some skills being more influenced than others.

Interesting thread! My ds2 has speech and language impairment plus fine motor skill problems. We have never been given dyspraxia as a diagnosis but all the worksheets we got given by the paed. were all about dyspraxia.

With ds2 he reached all his physical milestones at the late range of normal. Jigsaws not brilliant but can do simple ones. I remember as a toddler when I let him out of his buggy he would reel around. My friend used to call him the gin and tonic man. Also he found it hard to manipulate his fingers individually.

I always wondered about his visual tracking-he was assessed a few months ago by an OT and his visual tracking was within the normal range. His big problem is co-ordinating his left and right sides if that makes sense. He is in Yr 1 and beginning to write but needs to be constantly reminded to hold the paper he is writing on still with his other hand. Also with scissors -he forgets to hold the paper with his free hand. I feel that the fine motor skill problems impacted on his toilet training too-he struggled to pull trousers/pants up and down and generally less aware of his body.

I am very interested in connections between language development and dyspraxia as he is seems to struggle to find words -like dyslexia of the brain.

It has improved though -he is nearly 6 and can write (a bit!) and can use a knife and fork (very clumsy but getting there!) He can also do (after careful thought!) the spiderman web thing with his fingers -mums of 6 year old boys will know what I mean

Mum38

Ds2 has word-finding difficulties (as well as many speech and language problems). I notice that he quite often gives you the answer to the question before (which I suppose is a processing speed thing), or he answers a word from a similar category - e.g he might say crocodile instead of frog because they are both green and go in the water. Also if he makes a mistake once, he often repeats it even though he knows it's wrong. It's like his brain can't change direction. (I read something a dyspraxic man had written about driving - he said if he went the wrong way once, he found it hard not to do it again even though he knew it was wrong and I thought that is just like Ds2!).

Is your son's language affected in other ways?

My ds also fails to use both hands at once - ie holding paper still. Can't use scissors, and like your ds Saker, can't even keep his feet on the pedals when pushed (what I am supposed to do about the Childline push thing at nursery? All the other kids will be whizzing about on scooters and trikes.)
Mum38, my ds is really struggling with toilet training too. Genuinely doesn't seem to experience the urge enough to recognise it most of the time and will just wee in the street while walking along. He doesn't even know if he has weed unless he is wet most of the time. Same for poo. And has terrible trouble pulling pants/trousers up and down. He is the messiest eater in the world! And he gets SO dirty what with leaning on walls and the floor, falling over, spilling everything, dropping the food off his spoon and -this really gets me- he turns pens inward when he is holding them so he makes marks all over himself with them and has no idea he is doing it. Grr!

He speaks really well though and is bright, so I really shouldn't complain. It just gets frustrating though.

My dd has problems with her vision tracking. When we went to Bibic they noticed thats he found it hard crossing the mid line from left to right. So instead of sweiveling the top of her body she would physically turn herself around. She is also constantly bumping into people. They did mention an opthamologist, has anyone had any experience of them?

must preview before posting

I am actually quite worried about the pedal push. Will talk to nursery staff about it, I think. Ds is blissfully unaware of any differences most of the time, and I don't want him to feel as if it is a problem if he can't do stuff.

BH

See the website I posted further down this thread for info on behavioural optometry.

Aloha, I would talk to the nursery staff. Maybe you could use a push along without pedals? I hate walking to school with Ds2 in his major buggy while all the other kids are pedalling their trikes, scooters etc. Ds2 never says anything but sometimes I notice he is watching them.

But most of the time he seems unaware. He was showing me his "jumps" yesterday, which consist of him running towards the sofa and throwing himself on !

Aaah! That sounds like ds - 'look at me jumping!' as he scurries along. Bless.
I'm not sure he could make a toy car move in any meaningful way even without pedals.
Dh takes ds to nursery - its' a two minute walk for me, but ds takes him on his back. I walk back with him but it takes FOREVER! And honestly it is literally a two minute brisk walk from our front door!

My ds still fits into his pushchair which my mum uses with him. With me he goes on the buggy board though I try to make him walk as much as poss to try to build his strength up. Hard work though.

How old is your DD1, Pamina3? We had the backward pedalling going nowhere business with DS1 for ages and it was so frustrating, and now it seems that DS2 (4 in August,who in many ways seems a bit less physically discombobulated) can't pedal either and does that backward thing.Aaagh!
Forgot to mention that DS1 (7 in August) also had poor articulation (still quite unclear speech), dribbled late, had chewing problems (particularly meat, though he now seems OK with it - he would chew one mouthful for 15 minutes and seem unable to swallow up until a year ago), some sensory issues (chewing clothing, hates nails being cut, used to think the wind was going to blow his hair away, cried when we put him bare legged on grass.....).
Do those all sound dyspraxic-ish symptoms?
He can follow a point though and spot something he's interested in at 100 paces, so doesn't really fit the title of this thread - sorry!
I do wonder about his visual tracking though, because for ages when reading he would lose his place, and he copies pretty inaccurately.
He's a lovely boy, but somewhat 'out of the mainstream' - he'll go around saying things like "How splendid! I find that quite amusing actually!" When he's obsessed with something, he's so obsessed that many of his friends just don't get it - right now it's Doctor Who and all his various regenerations.
Right, I'll go now - sorry for butting in on the thread, but every time I read stuff about dyspraxic children so much of it makes me think of DS1.

Definitely a very interesting thread. DD is in Year 1, she's 6 and got a dx of dyspraxia a year ago. She's also got hypermobility and speech and language delay according to one report from the paed. She was slow to roll but fine for sitting, crawling and walking, but after that she was pretty slow to meet the milestones - watching her try to jump was completely painful. I remember watching her in the playground in nursery trying desperately to pedal and toilet training was a nightmare (and we still have occasional lapse)Struggles with the pushing down a handle and pushing the door bit. Feeding has been a struggle. It took her until the end of the first term of reception until she could do anything near a short version of her name, due to her pencil grip etc. I always had to hold her hand when she was little as she was forever tripping over something. And she finds it really hard to see something on the floor right in front of her. She's not a big fan of jigsaws etc. In the Madeleine Portman book (or whatever her name is, I've lent it out) she does say that some children with dyspraxia seem to do all the early milestones until they are approx 14 months, which definitely seems to be the position with my DD.

The good news is that her school have been really good, she's got an IEP and has a session with the SENCO each week where they do some brain gym type stuff. She started doing drama which she loves as she's always been very imaginative and she's learning the piano which seems to be helping her as it gives her an auditory feedback to the amount of pressure she exerts, which she found a problem with writing. The combination of the help at school and her increased confidence from doing piano and drama (both of which she wanted to do, I cringed a bit when she came home from school with a note about tennis sessions though !)and fish oils, seem to have made a huge difference to her. She's so much more confident, which has an effect on her social skills. Her writing has improved beyond belief, would have been unthinkable a year ago and she's really enjoying reading to herself.

SG, the reason we are concerned about ds' visual tracking is as you describe - losing his place in a book even though he reads well and difficulties in copying from a board, compounded by his motor difficulties affecting the mechanics of writing. As it is not naturally improving, even with specific exercises from his OT, we may now need to involve a specialist. I was told that it is not uncommon for visual tracking problems to be apparent in under 7's but they should self correct by now. The sensory type issues you describe I think could apply to a number of conditions, which may overlap, - recently described on MN as the Olympic rings - or exist on their own.

We went to a party at a play centre last weekend and ds' problems with jumping were so evident on the trampoline. His friends, many years younger, were throwing themselves higher and higher whilst he just jumped as normal and didn't seem able to feel the rebound or use it to propel himself. However at least he tried and had fun, and he is getting better at trying things he would have previously opted out of.

Interesting about the piano. Have thought about this for ds when he is a little older (maybe five) as he loves music, seems to have a good ear and loves pianos!
My ds just lies down on bouncy castles - rather nerve-racking that, esp with larger kids around.
He uses a mini-trampoline at his OT playgroup but doesn't love it so don't think he would use it if we bought one.

Aloha -about the pedalling a trike. My ds2 couldn't do this at nursery-it was on his IEP for 3 terms! He finally did it in the holidays between nursery and reception. With all his big motor skills he has been that bit late - he mastered hoping last year (age 5) about a year- later than his peers. Also about dressing skills -putting on his coat, zips, getting changed for PE. It's worth asking the school if they can help with these skills too-ds2 put his coat and zipped it up at school first. They were all on ds2's IEP during reception.

With the toilet training I am finally getting to the stage of not automatically taking a change of clothes with us everywhere we go (ds2 is nearly 6). He was very slow to potty train-and then had accidents of both kinds until he was 5-5.5. What helped iintially was letting him go without anything on his bottom half for a week so he didn't have to worry about pulling trousers up and down. Then putting him in the lightest, easiest cotton shorts to pull up and down. I can remember thinking it is never going to happen!! Also he needed extra fibre (pear a day) because if he was the least bit constipated he seemed to have no sensation to have a poo. (sorry if you have tried all this but thought I would mention it in case it is of use)

Saker- ds2 is very similar as if hs brain is wired up strangely and he can't break the loop. When he's excited you can almost see the effort it costs to drag the words up from somewhere. Also he has a slight "processing delay" before responding to a question. One SALT we saw suggested doing lots of categories with ds2 to get him to organise his brain (I've put that badly but hopefully you know what I mean). So when I remember we sort the fruit from the veg and farm animals from zoo animals. It's so hard to find the time to do everything...

ds2 was in his buggy until 4 then when onto a buggy board until 5. He is now finally walking to school on his own although it hardwork. I mean't to mention his other dyspraxic traits are dribbling alough this is finally improving and lack to strength is his fingers/hands and poor upper body stability. Also he has a poor sensory image of his body -in the bath I get him to close his eyes and guess which part of his body I am washing with a flannel-he finds this so hard. It's an exercise the OT gave us -I was so surprised how unaware of his body he is!

I am still confused as to whether is speech and language problems are dyspraxia or something else.....

In a way it's nice to hear of other dyspraxic children with toilet training probs - keep being told it's not connected with dyspraxia but if you have a very unsure sense of your own body it makes sense to me that potty training will be harder. Also he never seems to realise he is hungry! Loves chocolate etc and will ask for it, but doesn't seem to recognise hunger until he is desperate.
He certainly can't even begin to hop! Ah well, I expect he will get there in the end.
And saw him today at nursery happy in one of those toy cars without pedals where you just shuffle your feet - he can only go downhill!

Agree Aloha , toilet unreliability was one of the factors which prompted ds'teacher to talk to us about his motor issues. He was almost 6 but had a few accidents in the 6 months she had taught him - mainly when he was out of his routine and didn't go before they left for an impromptu walk for example. ds really likes structure to his time and he plans things such that if we try to alter them without telling him he gets really wound up.

He never pedalled his trike properly, whereas dd could do it from before 3, but was gradually able to on a bike, the leg position and pressure is more downwards than across so perhaps more natural. Hopping is pretty recent too. One of the exercises from ds'OT is to balance on one leg and then put the opposite hand onto the raised knee and hold. It is supposed to help with crossing the midline mentioned earlier.

My DD's problems with speech have been more to do with pronounciation although she does sometimes struggle to get the right words. When she had physio, the physio got her to move her tongue and I was suprised at how hard she found this. She couldn't move it upwards at all and struggled to move it sideways. The physio warned me that what will happen is that her mouth and jaw will grow and she will struggle again periodically. This seems to be happening atm, not helped by the loss of her two front teeth bless her !