Very quiet baby - worrying myself silly

[Bornworrier]

Sitting here worrying myself silly in the middle of the night about my son. He is almost nine months old and he is just so quiet. He has a boisterous older brother, but ds2 just sits there watching him play. ds2 is a very happy little boy and is always smiling, sleeps well, is always grabbing my face, putting his hand in my mouth, loves cuddles, loves his toys and has not got a problem with eye contact. However, the only noises he makes are laughing, crying, occasional vowel sounds and a lot of "Mmmmm, mummm" noises when eating his food. I am worrying already that he has a language delay problem and have been looking at all your posts about autism and apraxia. Do you think it is too early to be worried? What else should I look for in order for it to be something like autism or apraxia?

[coppertop]

Thanks Tamum.

[coppertop]

Dino - What tactless post??? At last, someone as paranoid as me!

[coppertop]

I actually thought it was a useful post. It helps to know HOW parents with ASD children know that their other children aren't on the spectrum. Not tactless at all.

[bornworrier]

Please tell me what this 'looking at things out of the corners of your eyes' is? It keeps cropping up. ds1 who is 2.6 does this quite a bit and he is not autistic.

[Jimjams]

coppertop I thought I'd been a bit tactless as well (on another thread I said something similar) so glad you didn't think so.

I'm reading Charlotte Moore's book at the moment- it's really very good. She describes the difference between her NT son and her autistic boys really well- and its interesting as her autistic boys are so different (ds1 is very like Sam from her description). If you can get a copy I think you would find it very interesting (and moving- I started blubbing in Nick Hornby's introduction!).

[Jimjams]

It's a common stim borworrier- autistic kids often have strange vision so they do weird things with their eyes. DS1 often does "funny eyes" where he turns his eyes sideways. He used to have a toy station with a fence and he would hold that at the side of his face and flick it backwards and forwards.

[BlossomHill]

As mentioned bfore my dd does this occasionally say a few times a week (3/4). It is a farely newish thing as the other thing that dd used to a lot was fingers over the ears when excited/scared. Anyone else with a child that does that?

[mrsforgetful]

thanks for the maral boost!!

REALLY 'wondering' about Alex (ds3...5yrs) as tonight he was banging the table with his hand- i asked him to stop ...and he said it was the table!

It took me a couple of seconds to realise how serious he was....is it possible that he see's the table as being to blame as IT made the noise....NOT HIM?????

he also makes alot of single word requests....ie "DRINK" "BISCUIT" etc.....the other 2 don't really do this so cannot see it as copied behaviour- school have noticed it too.

also noticed the other day how great his longterm memory is...i was getting a medicinal cream to put on a sore patch he had and he noticed the tube......he then said it was like the 'orange one' he'd had for his mouth....i was stunned as he was referring to a cream made by the same company that we had for him when he was 2!!! We have not had it since....now the best bit is that it was not ORANGE coloured but 'flavoured!!!!' so....he not only recogniosed the logo but remembered the taste too!

[BlossomHill]

Mrs F - I hope you don't mind me asking but have you spoken to school about your concerns with Alex? They may be able to throw some light on how he behaves in the classroom.

[mrsforgetful]

BH- just moved my 3 to a new school as the last one was not supporting the older two - so some of how he is at school they think is to do with the moving to a new school- however they have said they will 'at least' review this in october as he will have then had ample time to adjust.
I am happy with this as i love the school and as there is a 'unit' for SN at this school feel trusting that they are experienced with recognising kids that need support. (withing 2 days there they agreed that my middle son leigh was likely to be on the spectrum- and put him straight on school action plus....the old school could not see any of this!

historically Alex is 'just like' Thomas- leigh is the 'worst' affected in that he has a literal understanding and has to be taught to share/show empathy and other social skills. Thomas however has always shared ok and at 10 can use literal/sarcasm with understanding- and generally can be reasoned with. Leigh CANNOT. So....though i'd feel sad if alex is on the spectrum too....I feel certain that if he is he will be as thomas is....and that is less exhausting than Leigh!

If this is the case then i will TOTALLY dispute the current estimates of how may people have Autism...as my stepson has aspergers....and then say it's all 3 of my sons too....well that means my husband has fathered 4 boys with ASD....add to that my husband seeming very aspie....and my theory about me too as i felt sure 'I was different' all my life....well....how can can they say how few are affected!!!!

[BlossomHill]

Mrs F, don't know if you realise but I have changed my chatname from KPB to BlossomHill as I didn't really want to use my initials and liked the sound of it - it's my fav. wine! So I do remember your sons moving school and believe I may have given you advice sometimes. I have mentioned the change of name on quite a few of the posts but just so you know I am the same person!

[Davros]

Blossomhill, ear covering is a common autistic behaviour. As with much auti behavoiur, it isn't always what it seems to be. It isn't usually because of a noise, loud or otherwise, although it can be. They press at the front and the theory is that it changes the quality of general sound and they just like that "rushy" sound, its also a way of cutting other people off. The thing with the eyes may be because autis often seem to use peripheral vision, i.e. they may seem to be looking at something but they are actually looking elsewhere.... if you look ahead but you can still see things at the sides and you can actually "look" at them without moving your eyes but by concentrating on them. That's why lots of autis can pick out a correct picture or object etc when asked to although you think they haven't looked. May also be related to what we see as lack of eye contact... maybe they are looking at us but not as we know it!!
The most amazing thing (to me) my little DD has done is wave spontaneously when you say goodbye. Even now with my DS we have to prompt heavily and used to always have to say "wave" although we don't now but its always hard work!

[BlossomHill]

Hi Davros - I just feel very confused at the moment as All of the professionals involved do not believe that dd is on the spectrum.Although the SALT at the langauge unit has said that she is classically Semantic Pragmatic and I have to agree. Therefore if she has this language disorder then surely she must be on the spectrum mildly somewhere, infact I know that she must be. The problem being that on her statement it says that it is unlikely that she is and to be honest I was relieved at the time as us mums always like to see the positives. My daughter's main issues are definitely langauge and she would not have got into the unit had she been too auti (if you get what I mean) but the way I am thinking now is that whatever brain problems cause autism must also casue langauge disorders? Anyone agree with me??? Sorry to ramble but I am feeling really stressed with it all. BH

[Davros]

Well BH, it sounds like she probably does have a language disorder but is not autistic, I think we had a thread on this before a while ago. There are overlaps so it can be confusing but when I see a child with a developmental/learning disability that isn't autistic it is fairly clear. But there's lots of behiours that are autistic that maybe children with poor communication also develop like hand flapping. I think its unlikely she'd be in the language unit if she was also ASD, I know someone who resisted the ASD diagnosis and was trying to get her DS into a language unit but when push came to shove he didn't get a place and the dx of ASD was given, it just wasn't the appopriate place for him so it was for the best but sad for his mum.

[maddiemo]

I can understand your confusion Blossomhill.
I do know that where I live if you have an autism diagnosis you will not be able to access a language disorder unit no matter how mild the autism is. What we find very unfair is that the language units get a considerable amount of SALT whereas all the other uints get very little. We have 3 hours a week between 24 children including non verbal children. Speech & language play a large part of my sons autism and we are now trying to get separate language disorder diagnosis as we have very little of his language difficulties in his statement and anticipate taking the LEA to tribunal in the future.

I don't know if that is any help, but believe me I'm pretty confused. We are told that our childrens individual needs are what matters but labels do seem to play a large part in provision.

[bornworrier]

My very quiet baby has got a little more vocal over the last day or so and now has said "Mo mo" or "moo moo" a few times when crying for me. This is not typical babbling, but as far as I can see an attempt to let me know that he needs me. dh said that he was doing it when I was in the bath this morning and he was obviously looking for me. He stopped doing it when I came in and comforted him. This is the first consonant sound he has made in 9.5 months. Is it perhaps normal for some babies to miss out babbling altogether and to try to form words? (I have being saying Mummy until I am blue in the face.)

[BlossomHill]

Davros - I think your post summed the whole situation about my dd up TBH. It is just that there is so much more about autism then language disorders. When the SALT dx dd with a language disorder I looked at her and said "What is that". I can remember being really upset as I thought dd just had a delay and the word disorder frightened the hell out of me!!!
As I posted today on a site that is specific to language disorders:-
Dd is very confusing because 95% of the time she seems so "normal" (sorry, hate that word) and then the other 5% she does something like echo,hands over ears,looking out the corner of her eye and I think now that isn't "normal".
We are extremely lucky that dd has the school provision that she has as the therapy is fairly intensive and dd seems to be benefitting from it. The downside can be that as it is so intensive poor dd is shattered and rarely wants to do anything with me, except read her reading book.
Good luck Maddiemo, hopefully you will be able to access more SALT with the Langauge disorder dx!

[Jimjams]

Exactly maddiemo. The exact same reason I battled for a year to get a diagnosis of verbal dyspraxia as well as autism. In our authority autistic children are actively denied SALT as they are "too difficult" and there are "no resources" (never mind that there are resources to spend 6 weeks teaching someone to pronounce s and f correctly- and not saying that they shouldn't receive help but in our area it seems to be dished out according to who will be easy to fix rather than whether or not it is going to help make a difference to the chance of an independent life in the future or not). All children should be able to access resources and I believe it should go on need not on labels. Some autistic children I know don't need much in the way of SALT- although they may need social skills training, but some such as my son need it very much, as they have extra speech problems and considerable language difficulties. In the end we just paid for it, although we have managed to safe guard some in a way by getting it in parts 2 and 3 of the statement (although that is being ignored at the moment as well- never mind that its supposedly a legal requirement to provide it).

Although I was pissed off having to wait 2 years for OT I never minded in the way I minded about having no SALT. Like SALT OT access is limited in our area, but it did seem to be allocated according to need. Those children who really really needed it did seem to get it- whereas children like my son - who would have benefitted but didn't have an absolute need for it had to wait considerably longer. For a rationed service I think that is the right approach. Dish it out to those that need it most, whatever their diagnosis.

BH I think the thing to remember that autism is the "triad" of impairments, in communication, imagination and socila interaction. A child with a language disorder will have an impariment in communication, but the other 2 areas may be intact (although of course social interaction can be affected). Things like covering ears, looking out of the corner of eyes shows sensory issues, common (almost universal perhaps) in autistics but possible to be found in people without autism at all (for example sensory issues are common in dyspraxics as well).

[bornworrier]

jimjams - watching my son this morning (still no babbling) he is clearly getting frustrated at not being able to communicate. He forms an 'M' with his lips ad appears to be really trying to 'push' the word out. He's doing it again and again and every time, when there is just a 'Mmmmm' he starts crying. It's frustrating for him and frustrating to watch. He's constantly pursing his lips into an 'M', making a noise, but it goes nowhere. Every time he tries to 'speak' it ends in tears and he's been doing a lot of crying lately. He also keeps pulling and poking his ears and sticking his thumbs (with open hand) into them. Do you think that this sounds normal?

[Jimjams]

Bornworrier- I think that at 9 moths you are worrying too much about speech. Many children aren't even trying to speak at 9 months (and the ones that are are usually girls). DS2 wasn't making any consonants at 9 months just cooing sounds. OK I know think he has verbal dyspraxia but I'm not going to be sure of that until he's closer to 3. He certainly doesn't have a communication disorder.

Play games like peekaboo with your son. Read little books with him- that sort of thing. Don't try to force communication out of him as it will put him off. Just let him play with sounds. DS2 didn't really do much except babble nonsence sounds until he was 2 in January. He now speaks in sentences (very unclearly but sentences all the same). Even when I do some speech work with him I limit it to about 5 minutes (or until he's had enough) and he thinks he's just playing.

My autistic son was talking pretty clearly at 9 months (spoke well between 9 and 15 months- looked very advanced for his age- until he stopped - his language has been stuck at 15 months for the last 4 years).

Young babies should enjoy your company and enjoy playing and being sociable with familiar adults. That's all, nothing else. I think you just need to relax and keep an eye on him for the next few months. If he's still not babbling at 12 months then maybe see your HV, or if he doesn't start pointing by 18 months (especailly pointng out things of interest) then ask for a referral, but until then I'd just try and relax and enjoy him. There's nothing in any of your posts that would particularly worry me if he was mine.

[Jimjams]

Unless he's never had a hearing test- in which case that would be worth getting done asap.

[bornworrier]

Thanks jimjams - You know I am a worrier as my name suggests so it is hard to put it out of my mind. I will try to do as you suggest as I know it is the right thing to do.
He saw an ENT specialist last week who has refered us on for a hearing test. He failed his 8 month hearing test twice in left ear and then the HV 'let him through' as 'he is so obviously hearing'. Yes, but perhaps not in both ears. Doh! Enjoy the rest of the weekend, we are off to the London Zoo...