Very quiet baby - worrying myself silly

[Bornworrier]

Sitting here worrying myself silly in the middle of the night about my son. He is almost nine months old and he is just so quiet. He has a boisterous older brother, but ds2 just sits there watching him play. ds2 is a very happy little boy and is always smiling, sleeps well, is always grabbing my face, putting his hand in my mouth, loves cuddles, loves his toys and has not got a problem with eye contact. However, the only noises he makes are laughing, crying, occasional vowel sounds and a lot of "Mmmmm, mummm" noises when eating his food. I am worrying already that he has a language delay problem and have been looking at all your posts about autism and apraxia. Do you think it is too early to be worried? What else should I look for in order for it to be something like autism or apraxia?

[Bornworrier]

... so what other forms of non-verbal communication should I be looking for in my 9 month old?

[Jimjams]

well to be honest its not easy to spot in a 9 month old. The behaviours that would signify concern are lack of join attention and lack of gaze monitoring then lack of pointing. BUt these only start to develop at around 9 months. Some children (usually girls) may start with this then, but its early.

I've had a browse on google for gaze monitoring and joint attention - but they are all talking aboutits absence in children of +15-18 months.

I suppose at 9 months things like playing very repetively (turning the same toy over and over) - not "wanting" things. Most children deperately want to explore and get toys, passive autistic kids aren't that bothered- actually make that aren't remotely bothered. And as part of that being late to reach out.

But all of these things can be seen in NT kids as well. It just depends on the frequency really. Also I've heard that passive autistic are the least common - most of my friend's autistic kids were extremely difficult from birth. Certainly my experience of a very passive laid back baby seems quite unusual amongst my friends.

Really you can't tell much at 9 months. Other than not babbling in itself is not necessarily a problem. IN the first half of the first year you should see pointing develop. First in reponse to "where's the" type questions then leading up to things that are wanted, and then onto things of interest (eg "da" with a point at a dog). The last one is the most important type of pointing but often doesn't develop until 15 months + - which is why the CHAT test is designed to be used at 18 months.

[karen99]

Hi Bornworrier.. I haven't had a chance to read through all the replies, but have you thought about baby signing? My ds is 10mo and even though he is babling we decided to introduce signing for hearing babies (TinytalkUK or Sing&Sign ). You can start with a few simple signs such as 'milk' or 'food' or 'water'. You always say the word at the same you make the sign so they associate the two. This may be a way of communicating with your ds2 and it may prove several points if successful - hearing and copying? Just a thought. HTH.

[maddiemo]

My son is autistic and was (still is) very passive. The one thing I remember is that he never held out his arms to be picked up.

Does your baby respond to your speech in an excited way?

All of my children have been late to babble. Keep and eye on him but don't let it ruin your enjoyment of him.

[mrsforgetful]

both my autistic sons could not be comforted by cuddles- if anything the cudling made them more upset- so the fact that he likes cuddles feels good to me- also neither ever woke up without screaming......i know babies who actually woke up and 'played' before crying....with mine opening eyes signified screaming!
My third son is hopefuly ok----but.......like you i worry- he is 5 next week and is struggling with the pointing thing.....even in the garden i said the other day " over there by the back door" and he said "What door?".....i was pointing....and we only have one back door.

However.....i agree with many on here that 9 months is a difficult age- looking back ALL my boys were 'slow' to use connected speech- the 2 autistic ones learnt words and then after a few days stopped using them....now at the time of this happening i knew nothing of autism and simply thought that this was 'their way' of learning....ie store up the words ready to string together at a later date.....however now see this was probably regression.

If i were you i'd keep a very simple diary of things that you notice- and then around the 18mth point- you can 'officialy' do the CHAT test.....and discuss the specificthings you noticed....eg my 7 yr old Leigh- ds2- could not pronounce SP,ST,SL,SK,SC,SM,SN,ETC...IE ANY S+Consanant....the exception was SH.....he could use that ...and used it to replace others so SKY was SHY and SCOOP (off Bob the builder) was SHOOP....and others he'd simply only sound the 'S'...so SPOON was SOON and STOP was SOP. I wrote all these down.....as i was worried about him starting school- i worked like mad on this all summer and because at almost 5 he stopped this - no SALT was needed....looking back i wish i'd 'left him be' as i believe his autism would have been noted then . Us SN parents are often caught between doing the best to help our kids....but not too much incase the professionals think there is no problem...if you get what i mean!!

[babyjane]

Bornworrier, it doesn't sound like your child is autistic (but as everyone says at that age it is still hard to tell). My ds2 is autistic, and as a baby never cried from birth, we used to wake him up to be fed. He did smile, but never ever played with toys, he would be fascinated by objects and spin them. He never pointed and never wanted cuddling, and never put his arms up to you.

One other significant point with babies, is do they respond when called as my ds2 always appeared deaf, he dramatically failed hearing test after hearing test and had two sets of grommets, cause they thought it was glue ear (which he did have a little bit of - but not terrible). He never ever turned when you called him although he could hear just didn't want to respond.

To be honest it doesn't sound like your little one is like this at all. If anything it could be a slight speech delay or glue ear.

If you are worried take him to your doctors and ask them to check for glue ear. Worth a go and might put your mind at rest.

Good luck and I am sure he will be fine.

[Bornworrier]

Thanks for all your messages. I am still worrying a great deal and have an appointment this week to take him to the doctor. I am finding it so hard to stop thinking about this all the time and watching him intently for any signs of talking. I am not paying so much attention to my older son who is two and feel terrible for doing it, but can't help it.
I have dones loads of internet research over the last few days and it is clear that there can be huge variations in what babies are doing and by when, but this still doesn't make me feel any better.
maddiemo - When I babble at ds2 he gets very excited, moving his legs and smiling, but never returns the compliment.
Would a mild hearing problem in one ear only affect speech???? The little lad had trouble passing his hearing test in one ear (in fact did not respond to anything in his right ear). Did a bit better at the re-test, but still very iffy.

[Jimjams]

according to sally ward of babytalk book- hearing loss in one ear can seriously affect a child's ability to learn speech as they can't learn to localise sound properly.....

[rsv1000r]

I know it is easy to say, but try not to worry too much - my mother is fond of telling people how my younger brother (now has very high IQ member of mensa at 14 etc) hardly spoke at all and didn't babble, because I used to speak for him - "* wants a biscuit" and that sort of thing.

[agy]

I think he sounds fine. My ds was very late making sounds that meant anything, but I think the words were all there in his brain because once he did start talking he went straight into sentences and has never looked back! 9 mos is too early to be worrying IMO.

[Bornworrier]

Thanks all. My Mum had three kids and said by the time she got to her youngest, my brother, his speech was slow coming as my sister and I did all the talking for him.
Bought Sally Ward's book yesterday which I have started ploughing through - thanks for the tip on that...
Off to the doctors this afternoon (as my HV asked!) to get ds2 hearing checked and will discuss all with her.
Oh and ds2 started really trying to crawl this morning and also found him trying to pull himself up on his cot! He really is putting in the effort to develop physically as I suspect he wants to run away from older brother who is always trying to give him a hard time!

[coppertop]

Oh b*gger! I thought we'd made a bit of a breakthrough last night when ds2 seemed to be pointing at me. I've looked at some sites to see what level of imaginative play he should have and he doesn't do any of it, even though he's nearly 16mths. Still haven't seen the portage worker yet but will definitely have to say something.

[tamum]

coppertop, I'm so sorry you've got this worry. I know you've already been through it with ds1, and I certainly don't want to give false hope, but I am certain that my ds would have failed all these tests when he was a toddler. If mumsnet had existed at the time, and I hadn't been so ignorant of normal development I would have panicked. As it was I lived in blissful (ish) ignorance. He had a lot of autistic traits- you could keep him amused for hours, literally, by spinning those flat holograph tops, obsessed with hub-caps, melt-downs with any change of routine etc etc. He's a completely NT 9 year old now, and has been pretty "normal" since he was 4. As I said, I don't want to be sounding like Pollyanna and all "oh it will all sort itself out", and I do appreciate the need for early diagnosis, but some children do grow out of it to some extent.

I hope that's been slightly reassuring and hasn't just made everyone exasperated.

[coppertop]

Thanks Tamum. Yes it has reassured me a bit. As ds1 is (obviously) the eldest it's hard to know what patterns NT children follow so any NT experience is much appreciated.

[Jimjams]

What sort of play "should" a 16 month old be doing, and what does your ds2 do? Remember as well that play is closely linked to language development so any language delay will delay play skills as well.

I reckon you are doing the right thing asking someone you trust who knows your ds2 well and I'd still use your family history to push for an early referral (not that it's done us any good I have to say- ds2 was referred for SALT in January- still haven't heard a thing! Anyway I'm going to America now (by video) NHS is crap with verbal dyspraxia anyway).

Hows his understanding? According to Babytalk he should understand "little questions" like "where's your hat". IIRC things like "who has" etc develop later. Also hows his ability to copy? does he do it spontaneuously? I don't know what your ds1 was like but I would say that is the biggest difference between ds1 and ds2 (although I think ds1 is particularly severe on his lack of imitartion skills). Maybe that's more indicative than just pointing iyswim (as it demonstrates joint attention as well)

[Tessiebear]

My DS1 age 6 has just at school been given a vague diagnosis by his teachers of being slightly Aspergic (Aspergers syndrome). A lot of things are really falling into place with his behaviour now. He is the same with the pointing thing, imagination and a few other autism related behaviours. Because we only just found out about this i am like "so what" this is part of his character and the AS is part of who my son is. He is doing really well and just needs extra support and understanding. Things can be worrying when you are not sure of the consequence but at the end of the day apart from getting as much advice and support however they turn out you will love them all the more for it....

[maddiemo]

Coppertop, I understand how you feel. My ds3 who is five is autistic. My ds4 has been referred to the CDC. He was late to point (18mths) and has no imaginative play still (2.7), however I no longer think he is autistic. He has been referred for SALT as his speech is quite delayed(struggling to put words together although uses learned phrases.) I think his problems are more language related and he has traits of autism rather than actual autism. The cdc team want to keep an eye on him to see if he outgrows these traits but they did not feel see the need to refer to portage. I agree with Tamum that it is possible to show signs that can be out grown. I would ask for a referral as it will make you feel he is being kept an eye on.

[Jimjams]

I certainly think that language problems/oddities are common in siblings of autis. Although ds2 is definitely not auti- his language has been slow to come (expressive anyway) and he certainly has speech problems. That's why we're hoping for a precocious girl (or boy but I think they're less likely to be precocious) this time round A child who didn't need SALT would be a real novelty.

I guess the siblings don't have very good role models either which doesn't help.

Ugh you brought back bad memories then maddiemo of that place (struggling to get a double buggy upstairs when it didn't fit in the sodding lift!)

[maddiemo]

Sorry, Jimjams

When I go the lift is usually broken.

I remember being in the waiting area (about two years ago). There was a dark haired woman with two boys, one was a baby in a buggy and the other was about three and wandering around the waiting area. The woman was discussing moving away with one of the nurses. I remember wondering if the little boy had autism, my ds3 was sitting on a chair looking blank. I wonder if that was you.

[Jimjams]

sounds like me It would have been 2002- about March. DS1 would have been just short of 3 (but tall for his age) We went a few times beofre we left to see SALT and the HV. The buggy would have been a blue 3 wheeler. I'm dark hair kind of bobbish. I seem to remember ds1 kept running away at the time- up towards portage.

[Jimjams]

oh and ds2 would have been a tiny baby about 2 months.

[coppertop]

Apparently by 15 months their imaginative play should be about things that they usually do themselves, eg they can feed themselves so they pretend to feed toys etc. It could just be that as ds1 doesn't do this then he doesn't bother either I suppose. On a good day I can be quite optimistic and see that he does seem to enjoy interacting with other people. Then we have a bad day and all I seem to be able to see are his autie traits!

If I ask him "Where is x?" type questions he doesn't seem to have a clue what I'm talking about. I don't even get a response to "Where is Mummy/mama?" We still have to speak to ds1 in fairly simple sentences so it's automatic for me to speak the same way to ds2, eg "Ds2 go park" or "Ds2 have drink" etc.

I know what you mean about wanting a SALT-free child. There are only so many times I can go through the SALT flashcards with ds1 without still seeing the damn things in my sleep!

Ds2 doesn't really seem to be into copying. The only example I can think of was when he once took my cup and tried to drink out of it himself. Just remembered that he likes to copy noises though. One of his favourite games is for someone to say "Ah!" (with a short 'a' so that he can copy them and have what sounds like a mini-conversation.

See, I'm going round in circles.

[maddiemo]

Jimjams,

Maybe it was you. We seemed to live there in March 2002. I remember the little boy was bigger than my son but had a younger more babyish face. I wondered if he had autism beacause he seemed a bit aimless, if you know what I mean. The nurse is called Karen.

Coppertop Sorry you are not reassured, your ds2 is still very young. It has only been in the past few weeks that I can be sure that ds4 is not autistic.

[Jimjams]

ds1 is pretty aimless still I don't remember talking to a nurse though, although I may have. I do remember having a chat with someone shortly before we were moving. I was quite stressed at that time. We'd been told (by and ENT surgeon!) that ds1 was almost certainly autistic - but we were then trying to get referrals for dx down here as we were moving. Could have been me DS1 would have been quite fair then.......

[worriedsick]

Bornworrier- You could be me! I heaved a great sigh of relief when I read this message board (I'm not the only one out there driving myself crazy with worry!). My little boy (9 months) is not babbling either. We've found out that he has one glue ear (completely flat line reading) and the other ear is supposed to be normal. Consultant said that one ear glued shouldn't stop babble, so I was reassured to see that this might be having an impact (I'm making mmmm bbbb noises until I'm blue in the face, but nothing in return other than the odd oo or aah). I'm worried about physical development too - he is sitting beautifully and beginning to walk his hands out for things (is that lunging?) but doesn't roll and doesn't put his hands out to stop himself if he falls forwards.

Lots of smiles and of course we love him dearly, but I've felt quite isolated so its been great discovering mumsnet. We have an appt with a developmental paediatrician scheduled and I'm just taking each day as it comes and trying to enjoy our dear little son.