When could your baby link night time sleep cycles if you didn't sleep train?

[CasaMundi]

Mine is nearly 8 months and has woken hourly for help getting back to sleep since 4 month regression. I don't care if he sleeps through the night but even a 2 hour chunk would be nice! I was able to use gradual retreat with his sister with few tears but he has a different character. I'm wondering when did your baby start to link cycles independently if you didn't use sleep training to get them to self settle?

[CasaMundi]

Bump!

[Purple89]

Following with interest! My 9 month old DD has similarly been a terrible sleeper. We do get the odd 4 hour chunk if we co sleep though. And randomly she's started to do some longer naps, but not reliably unless they are contact naps. However, as well as regular wake ups at night, we also often have split nights and early morning wakings. Fun!

You're doing a fab job. Hang in there! Out of interest, what is different in his character that makes you think gradual retreat won't work well? Is he more vocal / strong willed? And how did the gradual retreat go with your DD?

[Roollie]

My 11 month old is like this. I'd say she is now more 2 hourly but if we have teething or an unsettled night for whatever reason (like Thursday night 😴) it's every 30-60 mins.
With my now toddler, he didn't sleep longer than 2 hours until I stopped breastfeeding at 13 months. So for him it wasn't until I removed the thing getting him back to sleep.
I am assuming baby will be the same but you never know.
In the last few days she has stopped waking 30 mins after going to bed and lasting 1-1.5 hours instead.

Sometimes it just happens randomly (here's hoping anyway!)

[Olika]

I have a 16 month old and I had to start co sleeping with her at 8 months as I couldn't do all the waking up anymore. I was so sleep starved I don't have clear recollections of the first 8 months. Since then she is sleeping longer stretches only woke up to feed once a night until at 14 months she refused to bf anymore and since then she is sleeping even better. I read somewhere that it helps if you have a bedtime routine and dark room so the baby knows it's time for night sleep. Darkness helps their body to produce melatonin. Also right kind of napping helps night time sleep. Also apparently babies' sleeping matures at around 12 months. I am sorry I cannot help more. Hang in there, it will get better.

[CasaMundi]

@Purple89 ...sadly his 1 hour chunks are despite cosleeping from his first wake! I dread to think what nights would be like without that!

Her difficulty was purely suck to sleep association. Once I put a nipple in her mouth she was straight back to sleep and I could roll over and go to sleep myself. The first night of gradual retreat she was quite outraged at being offered a dummy instead (she'd not previously had one) but once she sucked it she went to sleep and it was then a virtually tearless though lengthy process to get out of the room. The first night I was in the hallway she only woke once to feed.

I know it won't work like that with him as I've been trying! He's always needed a huge amount of help with sleep on account of discomfort related to reflux and cmpa. His preference is feed to sleep, sleep on a parent and have his bum tapped constantly! It was very easy to stop feeding him to sleep at bedtime, though he wouldn't take a dummy. In the sleepyhead I was able to get rid of the pat and just sit shushing him and he slept 4 hours! But of course I then had to take the sleepyhead as it's not overnight approved and since then I can't get rid of the pat without the kind of real upset that I'm not happy to put him through.

[CasaMundi]

@Roollie I'm praying for the random! When did the 2 hourly pattern begin?

[CasaMundi]

@Olika thank you for the flowers. Yes I do all the supposedly good stuff you list and no joy. I do wish mine would give long chunks cosleeping. I'm interested in the idea sleep matures around 12 months. 4 to go in that case!

[chilliplant634]

Mine never slept long chunks with cosleeping either. He would still wake up every 45 minutes. It was horrible. I was getting sick through sleep deprivation, so I sleep trained.

If you want a gradual approach then I would say you need to get the baby to do more of the falling asleep process himself each time. Work on getting him to fall asleep himself at the beginning of the night. For any other wake ups just do what you have to do.

Put him in the cot and shh pat. Then gradually stop patting and just shush right until his eyes are fluttery and he is about to sleep. Step it back each time. Also at night try to leave it a few minutes to respond before getting up to let him have a go at self settling.

[CasaMundi]

@chilliplant634 yes that's precisely what I've been doing but he is very unwilling to go to sleep without physical contact. I have on a few occasions been able to turn the pat into just a hand on him still but without the sleepyhead offering that contact instead I can't seem to get any further without him crying.

[Olika]

I am thinking back to when I started co sleeping at 8m and I remember I had to
Wake up on regular basis to put dummy back in DD's mouth but this got less and less and then she just slept longer and longer. At some point she was able to keep sleeping with her dummy nowhere to be found. I was reading this last night when trying to recall what was going on in my life at 8m. www.sleepingbaby.com/en-gb/blogs/news/how-to-help-baby-connect-sleep-cycles-at-night and I found it interesting.

[inpolzeathwetrust]

My baby breast fed almost hour and a half, round the clock, for the first 6-8 weeks, and absolutely flew up the centiles (went from 50th to 96th). He started sleeping from 7pm to about 5.30 am with just one waking for a breast feed at about 10 weeks. He was very consistent like this. If I remember correctly, he dropped the night BF at about 5 months, and carried on sleeping fine (unless unwell).

[YukoandHiro]

About 14 months

[CasaMundi]

Interesting. So apart from @inpolzeathwetrust who had a baby who didn't seem to struggle with the 4 month regression it seems it's around 12-14 months, often with night weaning. @YukoandHiro did your baby improve spontaneously or did you need to do anything differently?

[Roollie]

@CasaMundi

@Roollie I'm praying for the random! When did the 2 hourly pattern begin?

Not that long ago... 9 months? Then about 3 weeks ago I had 8 nights of 30 min wake ups maybe another regression who knows.

I've tried not feeding her back to sleep but she goes from 0 - 10 in about 10 seconds... Not sure how I'm going to stop eventually.

She was a good sleeper until the day she turned 4 months!!

Good luck to you, it's tough!

[CasaMundi]

@Roollie 9 months gives me hope. That's only another 6 weeks til potentially half the number of wakes.

[purplejeanie]

I don't think it'll dramatically improve until you remove the unsustainable sleep props (ie you patting him). Our baby started sleeping through (until 5 am) at around 4 months when we removed the dummy. He cried for about ten minutes but that was it and then he stopped waking every hour! Your baby will protest by crying because they're annoyed (that's how they communicate), but if you're with them reassuring them (ie staying in the room saying 'shhh..shhh') then they will learn to sleep with less intervention. It's not good for them (or you obviously) to be waking up so frequently.

[GinnyBee]

Mine stared doing it around 5-6 months I think? He still woke up every 2-3 hours until right after his first birthday though. But I had seen him in the monitor occasionally sit up, rub his face, maybe waa quickly and then faceplant back down and go to sleep, so I know he could do it if he didn't need anything at the time. But even with that "skill" he still needed feeds and hugs through the night until he was around 12 months old. It's totally normal, and "self-settling" is no magic bullet that makes them sleep perfectly.

[CasaMundi]

@purplejeanie I'm sure you are right that it would improve if I let him cry. The research that babies who have been sleep trained using crying methods continue to have elevated cortisol even when they appear to be 'happily' self settling does concern me though. Equally I do appreciate that many babies are sleep trained using crying methods and you can't pick them out in the playground.

[purplejeanie]

I think there's a difference in leaving them to cry by shutting the door and letting them sort themselves out (or coming back at intervals), compared to being in the room, offering support-which is what I'm suggesting. The crying is protesting that they're not getting what they want -but they don't know what they need, which is quality sleep. In the day time (as babies become toddlers) we don't give them everything they want (even if they cry), because it's not necessarily good for them. When you're sitting besides them, saying 'shhh' etc, you're not abandoning them and they won't be afraid. Also a well rested baby who wakes far less in the night will be happier in the day and overall there will probably be far less tears and upset,

[GinnyBee]

There is absolutely zero evidence that waking frequently is in any way harmful to babies, they are almost designed to do so. A baby who wakes several times a night is not necessarily lacking quality sleep unless something else is going on. Normal wakes without red flags are fine, although it’s not ideal for the parents.

[WildGeece]

My DC is almost 5 now. We did no sleep training. He started sleeping through the night at 3½, with the wakening getting gradually less as he got older. I can't remember what he was like at the age your baby is, but I was quite sleep deprived for a long time (probably til he was 3). I had various coping mechanisms: cosleeping, naps whenever possible, lots of coffee.

There is a good Facebook group called the Beyond Sleep Training Project that I found helpful for advice & solidarity, coping strategies, normalising of baby sleep.

[CasaMundi]

Thank you for your messages @GinnyBee and @WildGeece . Yes I'm aware that it's a myth that frequent waking is harmful for babies. When cosleeping most of the wakes are as brief as they would be if he was self settling into the next sleep cycle. It just unfortunately wakes me as I have to stick a nipple in his mouth. He wakes clearly refreshed except on days his sister wakes earlier than he woukd have chosen to get up. He randomly slept next to me for at least 3 hours (midnight ish to 3 ish) last night with no intervention required. Even if a one off it does give hope that things can spontaneously improve.

[Mmmmpavlova]

Mine woke 8 - 12 times a night at that age too. She improved all on her own at about a year.

I didn't night wean until 18 months.

[CasaMundi]

@Mmmmpavlova thanks for this. A year feels really not too far off. Fortunately I won't be going back to work until he's 13 months so I have a little time to play with. Like I said in my OP I'm not aiming for sleeping through the night as 'success'. I know from my daughter that there are many wakes for a drink/cuddle/after a nightmare/need the loo etc for years to come and that one or two wakes a night is sustainable in the long term. Last night's 3ish hours was glorious.... if I could just have a few more of those!

[Goldencup]

@inpolzeathwetrust

My baby breast fed almost hour and a half, round the clock, for the first 6-8 weeks, and absolutely flew up the centiles (went from 50th to 96th). He started sleeping from 7pm to about 5.30 am with just one waking for a breast feed at about 10 weeks. He was very consistent like this. If I remember correctly, he dropped the night BF at about 5 months, and carried on sleeping fine (unless unwell).

This was my experience with DS in 2004, but Gina Ford was very popular so he was " put down" to sleep from birth.