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Give me reasons why I should NOT sleep train my baby!

83 replies

Peridotty · 08/01/2021 20:24

Hi! I have a 7 month old baby girl. She only sleeps whilst being held or being in the stroller. For every nap and every bedtime, I have to walk and jiggle her for about 5 mins to get her to fall asleep (this used to be much longer). She is down to 3 naps so it's doable now.
She sleeps 11 hours at night and wakes up a few times a night but settles very quickly back to sleep (comfort feed). Half the night I will sleep with her in my arms because I fall asleep myself but if I am awake then I will put her back into her cot.
Anyway she is 7 months old now and I thought that this was the best time to sleep train?
However, she cannot sleep by herself. I have tried. She will roll and get up, sit up, crawl about, bang her head on the sides, wail hysterically etc etc. It's just much quicker and kinder to just hold her for a few mins or feed her to sleep.
BUT sleep training sounds soooo good in theory. I just want someone to talk me out of it. It doesn't always work does it?

OP posts:
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Megan2018 · 12/01/2021 15:58

It’s just not something I could do. Your baby needs you and you should respond-“training” out natural behaviour is wrong IMO. I just wouldn’t and couldn’t do it.

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Nicknamegoeshere · 12/01/2021 17:32

@Lelophants Totally agree. SIDS rates are very low in cultures where bedsharing is the societal norm.

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CarlottaValdez · 12/01/2021 17:33

I didn’t because I couldn’t bring myself to do anything that made him sad with no benefit to him.

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BuffaloCauliflower · 12/01/2021 18:20

@Liverbird77 for the most up to date research the video on this page and the site in general may be of interest. Our babies have evolved to sleep close to us and we do them no favours trying to force them otherwise. Adults can have firm mattresses. Most of the world cosleeps with their babies and yet have no concept of SIDS, it’s a western issue. Safe bed sharing is entirely possible and in many cases far safer for babies than exhausted mums falling asleep holding their babies sitting up, which is what happens when a baby refuses to sleep alone. Also 99% of bedsharing casualties are caused by specific risk factors that are easy to remove - an adult who’d smoked or drank alcohol for example. Loosing bedding getting on the babys face. Not the fact their in bed with their mum in and of itself.

cosleeping.nd.edu/?fbclid=IwAR1DPdGLpoDgRZNbAFvkKCeswjrD4hW4gCQLXOuSh1CIAxKgoUNYNRrwvUw

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Liverbird77 · 12/01/2021 21:24

@BuffaloCauliflower

I am familiar with him. This is a response to McKenna. Not mine, but I agree with the refutation.

Until yesterday, I had not read Dr. McKenna’s article on “Cosleeping and Biological Imperatives…”. It is unfathomable how he portrays the handling of infant death investigations and how he turns a blind eye to statistical facts.

(💩 = McKenna quote from article)

(💯 = rebuttal/evidence)

:::background::: James McKenna was NOT qualified to make these allegations. He had a PhD in biological anthropology (biological anthropology: aka, physical anthropology, a scientific discipline concerned with the biological and behavioral aspects of human beings, their extinct hominin ancestors, and related non-human primates, particularly from an evolutionary perspective.). i.e. BiOlLoGiCaLly NoRmAl

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💩 [bedsharing is dangerous] “Nothing can be further from the truth. This is akin to suggesting that because some parents drive drunk with their infants in their cars, unstrapped into car seats, and because some of these babies die in car accidents that nobody can drive with babies in their cars because obviously car transportation for infants is fatal. You see the point.”<br />
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💯 In other words: it is safe to drive with an infant unstrapped into a car seat because not everyone gets into car accidents. I don’t really even follow the logic, do people actually drive with infants without a car seat?<br />
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According to the National Center for Health and Statistics, “Unintentional Suffocation” is the number 1 cause of deaths under the age of 1 year. “Unintentional MV Traffic” accidents is ranked as the 3rd leading cause of injury/death.<br />
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💩 “And because co-sleeping in the form of bedsharing makes breastfeeding easier for mothers, it encourages them to breastfeed for a greater number of months, according to Dr. Helen Ball’s studies at the University of Durham, therein potentially reducing the mothers chances of breast cancer.”<br />
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💯 Is it just me, or does McKenna seems to insinuate that the only mothers to benefit from breastfeeding are those who bedshare?<br />
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CDC, How does breastfeeding lower the risk – “One reason may be that when a woman is breastfeeding, she experiences hormonal changes that may delay the return of her menstrual periods. This reduces her lifetime exposure to hormones such as estrogen, which are linked to an increased risk of breast and ovarian cancers.” <a class="break-all" href="https://blogs.cdc.gov/cancer/2019/08/01/breastfeeding-for-cancer-prevention/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">blogs.cdc.gov/cancer/2019/08/01/breastfeeding-for-cancer-prevention/</a><br />
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Further more, the World Cancer Research Fund acknowledges the risk reduction of LACTATING people. That includes exclusive pumpers! <a class="break-all" href="https://www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/exposures/lactation-breastfeeding" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/exposures/lactation-breastfeeding</a><br />
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Further further more, bedsharing and breastfeeding are not synonymous. <a class="break-all" href="https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/advising-moms-not-bed-share-infants-does-not-discourage-breastfeeding" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/advising-moms-not-bed-share-infants-does-not-discourage-breastfeeding</a><br />
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💩 “the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) SIDS Sub-Committee for whom I served (ad hoc) as an expert panel member recommended that babies should sleep close to their mothers in the same room but not in the same bed. While I elebrated this historic roomsharing recommendation, I disagreed with and worry about the ramifications of the unqualified recommendation against any and all bedsharing. Further, I worry about the message being given unfairly (if not immorally) to mothers; that is, no matter who you are, or what you do, your sleeping body is no more than an inert potential lethal weapon against which neither you nor your infant has any control. If this were true, none of us humans would be here today to have this discussion because the only reason why we survived is because our ancestral mothers slept alongside us and breastfed us through the night!”<br />
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💯 Here, McKenna seems to think that the AAP is “unqualified” to suggest that bedsharing is unsafe. Unqualified? The world’s leading SIDS task force is unqualified? I wonder what he thought made him so qualified?<br />
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Here is was the experts are up to: <a class="break-all" href="https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/task_force_on_sudden_infant_death_syndrome" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">pediatrics.aappublications.org/task_force_on_sudden_infant_death_syndrome</a><br />
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Nothing makes be cringe more than the statement “if this were true (that our adult bodies are lethal weapons to infants whom we share our beds with), none of us humans would be here today…” BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE BABIES THAT ARE NOT HERE TODAY BECAUSE OF BEDSHARING!!!???? Not ALL babies die while bedsharing, but this is unequivocally survivor’s bias.<br />
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💩 “What we do agree on, however, is what specific “factors” increase the chances of SIDS in a bedsharing environment, and what kinds of circumstances increase the chances of suffocation either from someone in the bed or from the bed furniture itself. For example, adults should not bedshare if inebriated or if desensitized by drugs, or overly exhausted, and other toddlers or children should never be in a bed with an infant.”<br />
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💯 This should be the end of it right here... I can only speak for myself but, I would never be able to bedshare if I followed these “factors” because I was ALWAYS overly exhausted. And let’s face it, many of those who choose to bedshare do so because they want to get more sleep (i.e. THEY ARE EXHAUSTED).<br />
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The facts: ASTM mattress standards are not the same for an adult (ASTM F1566) and an infant (ASTM F2933) mattress. They are not held to the same safety standards. Plain and simple. <a class="break-all" href="https://www.astm.org/Standards/F1566.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.astm.org/Standards/F1566.htm</a><br />
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💩 “My recommendation is, if routinely bedsharing, to strip the bed apart from its frame, pulling the mattress and box springs to the center of the room, therein avoiding dangerous spaces or gaps into which babies can slip to be injured or die.”<br />
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💯 Let me see those photos of your empty ass bedrooms with your mattress in the middle of the floor. Still, I bet that mattress doesn’t meet ASTM F2933.<br />
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💩 “Some professionals believe that it can never be made safe but there is no evidence that this is true.”<br />
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💯 This is just a blatant lie. There is so much evidence. I could link some here, but this group, and this post, is FULL of evidence. Use the search bar if you need more. <br />
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💩 “In short, and as mentioned above, cosleeping (whether on the same surface or not) facilitates positive clinical changes including more infant sleep and seems to make, well, babies happy. In other words, unless practiced dangerously, sleeping next to mother is good for infants. The reason why it occurs is because… it is supposed to.”<br />
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💯 I don’t know about y’all but my baby is a perfectly happy, healthy, LIVING child. There is no evidence to a baby’s happiness whether bedsharing or sleeping safely. The evidence strongly suggests a living child is happier than a dead child.<br />
<br />
“unless practiced dangerously…” I already addressed this. Does your mattress meet safety standards for infant sleep? Is it in the center of the room? Are you not exhausted?<br />
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💩 “Recall that despite dramatic cultural and technological changes in the industrialized west, human infants are still born the most neurologically immature primate of all, with only 25% of their brain volume. This represents a uniquely human characteristic that could only develop biologically (indeed, is only possible) alongside mother’s continuous contact and proximity—as mothers body proves still to be the only environment to which the infant is truly adapted, for which even modern western technology has yet to produce a substitute.”<br />
<br />
💯 Did I read that right? A baby is only born with 25% of their brain AND in order for the brain to continue growing, the infant must have “continuous contact” with the mother?! So…. What about those babies who have been adopted? Whose mothers didn’t get the option for extended maternity leave? What about those babies who are born to mothers who DIE during childbirth??<br />
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The Facts: No where does the CDC mention anything about brain development being dependent on “mother’s continuous contact”. <a class="break-all" href="https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/childdevelopment/early-brain-development.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/childdevelopment/early-brain-development.html</a><br />
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💩 “nothing a baby can or cannot do makes sense except in light of the mother’s body, a biological reality apparently dismissed by those that argue against any and all bedsharing and what they call cosleeping, but which likely explains why most crib-using parents at some point feel the need to bring their babies to bed with them —findings that our mother- baby sleep laboratory here at Notre Dame has helped document scientifically.... In turn, mothers seem to notice and succumb to their infant’s preferences.”<br />
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💯 That “need” most parents feel is exhaustion and desperation. Neither of which are a reason to put your child’s life at risk.<br />
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💩 “While each single bedsharing death is tragic, such deaths are no more indictments about any and all bedsharing than are the three hundred thousand plus deaths or more of babies in cribs an indictment that crib sleeping is deadly and should be eliminated. Just as unsafe cribs and unsafe ways to use cribs can be eliminated so, too, can parents be educated to minimize bedsharing risks.”<br />
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💯 “The predominant risk factor for younger infants is bed-sharing, whereas rolling into objects in the sleep area is the predominant risk factor for older infants.”<br />
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“In this analysis of infant sleep-related deaths, we found that sleep environment risks for 0- to 3-month-old infants were different than those for infants aged 4 months to 364 days. The younger infants were more likely to die while sleeping on the same surface (usually a bed) with adults, whereas the older infants were more likely to have been found prone with objects, such as blankets and stuffed animals, in the sleep area.” <a class="break-all" href="https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/early/2014/07/09/peds.2014-0401.full.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/early/2014/07/09/peds.2014-0401.full.pdf</a><br />
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💩 “We still do not know what causes SIDS. But fortunately the primary factors that increase risk are now widely known i.e. placing an infant prone (face down) for sleep, using soft mattresses, maternal smoking, overwrapping babies or blocking air movement around their faces.”<br />
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💯 Did he just agree with us?! Yes Dr. McKenna, soft mattress are a risk factor! All adult mattress are too soft for babies.<br />
<br />
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💩 “Infants in bedsharirng environments, like babies in cribs, can still die of SIDS.”<br />
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💯 Bedsharing increases the risk of SUIDS by 400%. But yes, babies also die in cribs. And people also die on toilets, but those odds are low. <a class="break-all" href="https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/early/2016/10/20/peds.2016-2940.full.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/early/2016/10/20/peds.2016-2940.full.pdf</a><br />
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💩 ”It is a shame and certainly inappropriate that, for example, the head pathologists of the state of Indiana recommends that other pathologists assume SIDS as a likely cause of death when babies die in cribs but to assume asphyxiation if a baby dies in an adult bed or has a history of “cosleeping”.”<br />
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💯 McKenna, still lying, claiming there is no investigation on any infant death is untrue and deceitful.<br />
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The CDC has been committed to SIDS investigations and ongoing death scene investigation training: In 1996, the CDC released their first SUIDIRF (Sudden Unexplained Infant Death Investigation Report Form). In 2006, they revised the  SUIDIRF and developed an infant death scene investigation training curriculum. In 2017, the CDC worked with experts in death scene investigation to learn more about their suggested updates. Just recently, in 2020, the CDC released the most up-to-date revision of the SUIDIRF that incorporated the expert suggestions.<br />
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Here is the actual form (SUIDIRF) death scene investigators must complete: <a class="break-all" href="https://www.cdc.gov/sids/pdf/SUIDI_Fill_508.pdf" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.cdc.gov/sids/pdf/SUIDI_Fill_508.pdf</a><br />
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<a class="break-all" href="https://www.cdc.gov/sids/suidrf.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.cdc.gov/sids/suidrf.htm</a><br />
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As you can see, SIDS is not a diagnosis of assumption. <br />
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💩 “Indeed, no legitimate SIDS researcher nor forensic pathologist should render a judgment that a baby was suffocated without an extensive toxiological report and death scene investigation including information from the mother concerning what her thoughts are on what might or could have happened.”<br />
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💯 Indeed, they do not render a judgement without such information.<br />
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br />
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In closing: what a bunch of bullshit hey?! McKenna’s academic studies qualify him to speak about BioLoGiCaLlY NoRmAL relationships. NOT about how to keep an infant safe. We as humans evolve. If you still choose to bedshare, I suggest going primitive and start renting a cave "because the only reason why we survived is because our ancestral mothers slept alongside us"<br />
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Even if the evidence wasn’t so conclusive, do you really want to continue and gamble with something so invaluable?
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gingganggooleywotsit · 12/01/2021 21:37

Training never worked for me. I also gave up bfing and went on to formula. Nothing worked. He slept through when he was ready. A few fats after his 3rd birthday

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gingganggooleywotsit · 12/01/2021 21:37

Days..

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AyrshireAmbler49 · 12/01/2021 21:38

Because she will learn that her cries aren’t worth your attention and will not attach properly.

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