Am I the only person who doesn't have a routine for sleep?

[TheCatsMeow]

I see and hear people saying "x time is nap time" or writing out schedules for when their babies nap and I'm floored by it. Starting to doubt myself because I don't do this at all.

DS sleeps when he's tired, I can tell when he's tired and put him down then. He might have one nap he might have three, he might sleep for two hours it might be less than 5 minutes.

We don't have a bed time either, he goes up when he's tired or when I want to watch the TV lol

He sleeps through apart from if he's ill and is fine, but I'm starting to think I'm doing it "wrong" as everyone else seems to have a time table?! I can't imagine doing that because I'm not one for routine but if everyone's doing it maybe it's me?

I'm the same with weaning, sometimes he has 3 meals sometimes he doesn't, it depends

Is there any reason not to do this?!

Thurlow he has two meals but they're just random at the moment, one earlyish and one later so I suppose it's sort of routine?

Thurlow no, I imagine I'll just put him to bed when he's tired, if that happens to be the same every night fine but I'll be very much led by him if that makes sense!

4yo's are remarkably good at claiming not to be tired

I think that as the parent it's your job to encourage healthy sleep patterns.
They need sleep for their wellbeing.

I have a 1 and 3yo, they both go to bed at 7pm because I'm the adult and I know they need their rest and so do I!

I'm not going to just let them stay up for as long as they fancy

The 1yo's daytime naps are as and when he's tired, but it is always the same times each day.

TheCatsMeow, how old is your DS?

5 months

At 5 months it's hugely easy to go with the flow and there's no need to change it.

But it is worth considering that as he gets older, and either you go back to work and have to drop him at childcare at a certain point, or when he's older he starts nursery, then there is going to be more of a need for a specific bedtime. Many babies are pretty good at getting as much sleep as they need by simply passing out when they need to. Preschoolers are often a whole different ball game!

So I'm definitely not saying you're doing it wrong - you're not - but it is worth considering that as he gets older the need for him to have more of a routine around bedtime while happen, and he will become less good at just passing out when he's ready.

If I let my 4yo decide what time she went to bed, it would be hellish.

Also, a 5mo is easy to keep with you all evening and still be completely able to do what you want with your evening. A preschooler? Much, much less so.

So it's not that anything is remotely wrong now, but it's worth bearing in mind that a sleep routine is likely (i.e. the vast majority of kids) to become necessary as he gets older, and there's a good argument for saying that the earlier you introduce the idea of a bedtime/sleep routine, the less of a shock to his system it will be when, aged 3, you announce that he's suddenly got to go to bed at 8 because he needs to be up at 7 - and at that age he's old enough to really fight you over it.

So absolutely not picking holes in what you are doing now as it's working brilliantly for you, but just pointing out that I imagine I'll just put him to bed when he's tired, if that happens to be the same every night fine but I'll be very much led by him if that makes sense! starts to apply less and less as the months go by.

I agree with everything Thurlow has just said!!

With a 5 month old only it's relatively easy to go with the flow, and by no means wrong but as Thurlow says it becomes increasingly difficult! I have a just turned two year old ds and a 6 month old dd. Ds has always been a very routiney boy, even as a baby. I have been unbelievably grateful for this since having dd. The idea of having an over tired toddler running around at midnight is nothing short of a nightmare!

Am I the only person who doesn't have a routine for sleep?

With a 5 month old, no you are not.

I wonder if it does change, I mean I've never been routiney and I assumed I would be after having DS but so far I haven't. I just go with it, and it seems to work. DS is strong willed anyway (gets that from me!) and is stubborn if you try to make him do something so can't imagine he would like a routine

Fate it just seems everyone is at least trying for a routine with a baby of this age, but others have commented that they haven't so it's not just me

Are you going back to work? Do you have a partner who works? Do you want to go to any baby groups/music classes/baby sign/baby yoga?
These thing sort of "push" a routine even if your baby doesn't. Although it's a very rare baby who doesn't develop any sort of feeding/sleeping routine. I only know of one person who didn't get into any sort of routine and she ended up having to delay her return to work to implement one!!!

Careful about projecting.

just seems everyone is at least trying for a routine with a baby of this age

Many are. Many aren't. Those who are, it is generally more about noticing baby's own natural rhythms through the daytime.

5 months is still little. Lots and lots will change over the coming months - let alone the coming years.

Yes but not until September and my family will do childcare, we live in a joint house so it's very easy to just go with it because someone is always around.

Don't go to any baby groups yet, I'm still trying to find one I like.

DS is funny every time he seems to develop a routine he then changes it all! The only somewhat routine he has is he sleeps fairly well

It will most likely change many times before then.

That's interesting Fate that many babies fall into one, I thought that happened because their parents encouraged one rather than the baby doing it

My ds just fell into his own routine. Probably a bit older than you baby though. My dd has had to fit in with ds's to a degree. For instance I do like to do toddler groups to give ds a run around so we go out every morning- so she naps in the buggy. Ds has his lunch at more or less the same time every day because....well, he gets hungry at lunch time..so it's easier to feed them both together now we're weaning. Ds has his nap in the afternoon so the house is quieter and it's easier for dd to have a long nap.

All well and good with a 5 month old but please please don't do this with a school aged child.

I'm a teacher and am staggered by the number of sleep deprived children I see at school and parents who don't seem to understand their kids NEED sleep. It affects everything they do if they're tired and no, they are not always the best judge of they own tiredness either!

Their not they!

Not everyone chooses to take the approach of following a routine or daily pattern, but many people do it to help themselves adjust to a child's changing needs and stay a step ahead of what children need too. To me that's the whole benefit of a routine - if you have to wait for children to tell you they're hungry or tired it's too late. You have seconds to respond and avert a meltdown which could easily have been avoided by simply being a few minutes ahead of them.

Around 6 months is an ideal time for many people to start looking for patterns in their baby's behaviour through the day, a routine if you will. At five months you may be sat in a post newborn glow thinking that you've finally done all the hard work when actually... It's just about to begin!

A lot of changes will start to take place - weaning to three solid meals, teething, movement, Cat you will realise that actually it's completely different to the first 6 months where really very little changes in terms of the baby's needs.

You will also start to realise that the whole toddler world actually revolves around the same principles. Classes take place between 10-12. Nothing happens at lunchtime (12) or before 2.30 (they're all napping, no one would turn up). Afternoon classes are 2.30-4.30 so kids are back for dinner at 5. So try as you might, you'd be far more limited from joining in by NOT having a routine.

Oh, and the cranky tantrumming toddler you see who's hungry and tired, he might be yours one day too. Give it time and grow together with your child in whatever way works for you.

Both my dd's sort of fell into their own routines. I didn't know wtf I was doing with dd1 or how to Instil a routine but by 6months she was reliably ready to go to bed for the night by around 7pm and having naps at roughly the same time each day. She's now 3 and still goes to bed at around 7, but there is room either way for an earlier or later bedtime depending on circumstances.

Dd2 is nearly 8 months and with pre-school runs and what not has had to slot in somewhat but she is also in a routine. She naps twice a day at roughly the same time and is ready for bed at 7pm like her sister. We do have to be flexible though, for example if she wakes earlier than usual on a weekday morning, she can't have her nap until we're back from the pre-school run as there just isn't enough time to fit a nap in until then. If we go out for the afternoon, she may miss her nap or have it cut short as she doesn't nap as well when out. Which is fine, she may be cranky but we make up for it by putting her to bed a bit earlier, or ensuring she has good sleeps the next day to catch up.

I dunno maybe Its just my brood but both kids would be severely overtired if I allowed them to stay up till when ever. The 3 year old given the option would gladly stay up and does occasionally try her luck but once she's settled in bed she's fast asleep within 15minutes which says it all really.

I do think most children thrive on a routine and that a routine tends to form organically given the chance. It's easy to wonder why so many people rely on routines when you have a small baby, but It's likely that you'll understand as your baby gets older and/or you have another child. Sorry if that comes across as patronising, it's not meant to be, it's just how I see it.

That's interesting Fate that many babies fall into one, I thought that happened because their parents encouraged one rather than the baby doing it

The only parent-led routine I can think of is Gina Ford and any suggestion of a GF routine on MN is usually massively flamed. It is fair to say these kinds of routines are not received positively on this website. GF herself I recall tried to sue Mumsnet for negative publicity on the forums.

However lots of babies do follow routines. Realistically these only work if you follow your baby's lead and just watch and encourage your childs natural rhythms.

Noticing the babys own rhythms requires some active paying attention. For example many Mums will notice, for example, my baby usually cant stay awake longer than X hours/minutes. You cant know that without actively paying attention to the baby and the clock over a period of time.

No baby will stick to an exact time rigidly, but it gives parents and idea so that they can begin to predict when baby will probably next be tired - give or take, and approximately. Not my the clock, but by time awake, for example.

On from that, parents can usually then start correlating time awake to time asleep - so predict next nap time on the basis on previous nap. Again, this involves active paying attention to the baby and the clock.

The routines you are reading are more about parents learning to be able to predict their own child's needs. They are baby led though, gained by watching how the baby behaves not from the insistence of a parent.

Having said that, once you are able to predict your baby's baby-led routine - you can then (if you need to) manipulate it to suit. For example if I knew my DD refused sleeping in the pushchair and can manage 80-120mins awake time before she's tired again and rarely naps for longer than an hour - I might work hard to get her to sleep for 2.15pm so that when we go on the school run at 3.15 (to pick up her siblings from school) that she isn't tired.

sometimes he has 3 meals sometimes he doesn't, it depends

That's just his age. Food needs just be for fun and discovery until 12 months old.

Even once on a full diet and needing 3 meals a day, "mealtimes" are usually fluid for babies and toddlers. Much of this fluidity is because sleep affects when meals can fit into the day.

Fate - don't you think though (and I'm not a GF fan, I was "baby led" until 6m and then coaxed my DC into patterns that suited the rest of the family) that what you're describing IS a routine?

To me, the parenting books like GF have spent a lot of time observing what the typical sleep / feed cycle times are for babies and toddlers of certain ages and then applied the general findings to our own clocks and daily schedules. The aim being to help parents deliver what the child needs more easily and with less requirement to intimately know your baby's cues?

I wonder sometimes if GF et al have actually redefined routine and that its wider interpretation from a parents perspective is more synonymous now with a rigidly enforced set of rules and principles than simply getting your child to fit in with your lifestyle as soon as you can.

I wholeheartedly agree with Kyle though, overtired children are at a real disadvantage in an educational setting.

Fate I've never done it like that, like you getting your DD to sleep so you can go out later. I tend to just do whatever and DS comes with me, so I won't do anything special if I'm making sense? I'll just get on with my day and feed him/let him sleep as he asks for it.

I do have a very placid baby though. I don't think I'd cope with one where I had to organise my day tbh so it works out I suppose!

that what you're describing IS a routine

Yes. It is definitely a routine

I am not saying it is not a routine. I am saying the routine develops in a baby-led way.

There's so much that can call under the term "routine", but it definitely has a negative vibe, especially on MN.

A know loads of people take the piss out of writing down what your baby does at what time, but actually it can be a very useful thing to do - especially if you feel either you or your baby are vaguely unhappy with how things are going.

I did it for a week and quickly realised that DD liked to eat and sleep at roughly 3 hour individuals. So to minimise a meltdown due to hunger, or an overtired baby, I offered bottles and naps at roughly 3 hours after the last one.

I have always called it a routine, because I was able to look at the clock at 11 and know that DD was likely to fancy a bottle as it was 3 hours after she'd last eaten. Didn't always work, because sometimes she'd be starving at 10.30. In which case she had a bottle then, and her next feed was offered 3 hours after that, so at 1.30 instead of the more common 2. It was very flexible but just have me an idea what might happen to the day.

That's interesting Fate that many babies fall into one, I thought that happened because their parents encouraged one rather than the baby doing it

As I mentioned before, I don't think it's that unusual if you step back and look at it. Most of us have a vague routine in our life anyway. We fancy breakfast about 9, we know that by 1pm we're going to start getting quite peckish, we know that eating dinner any later than 8pm doesn't agree with us, we know we like 8 hours sleep at night. It's surely not that surprising that even babies can only go X amount of time between food and sleep and that, if you think about it without the GF negativity, is a routine.