National Union of Teachers calls for lesson teaching time to be capped at four hours a day - what do you think?

[JaneGMumsnet]

Hello,

We've been asked by Metro to find out your thoughts on the news that the National Union of Teachers (NUT) has said that teachers should spend no more than 20 hours a week taking classes (four hours a day).

The NUT called for new limits on working hours amid concerns that school staff are facing "totally unsustainable" workloads. In some cases, teachers are left with little time to eat, talk, think or even go to the toilet, the NUT's annual conference in Liverpool heard.

The NUT passed a motion demanding a new working week of 20 hours' teaching time, up to 10 hours of lesson preparation and marking, and five hours of other duties. Other duties include time spent inputting data and at parents' evenings. This marks a drastic reduction in teachers' hours, the conference heard.

NUT Coventry representative Christopher Denson claimed that official figures from 2010 show that a primary classroom teacher works 50.2 hours a week on average, while a secondary school teacher works an average of 49.9 hours. "The same data tells us that four in five teachers have worked all through a night to catch up with work and spend every single term-time Sunday catching up with lessons," Mr Denson said. He added: "It's essential that we act to ensure that what's already NUT policy - a maximum working week of 35 hours - becomes a reality for teachers."

Do you agree with the NUT's position?

If you are a teacher, do Mr Denson's comments resonate with you?

We'd love to hear your thoughts.

Many thanks,

MNHQ

[heggiehog]

StarlightMcKenzie

Yes, student teachers are very slow, when they're doing it all for the first time and may be very young still (not always). Sometimes NQTs are slow too.

Qualified teachers however do not have time to be slow. It's sink or swim in the real ocean.

[Arisbottle]

I would not teach primary for all the tea in China. Every teaching thread, especially one involving primary teachers makes me feel like a shirker .

[FactOfTheMatter]

How long do non-teachers think it actually takes to mark a book to the standards Ofsted now expects? (Clue - you need to identify strengths and areas for improvement, initiate a 'dialogue' with the pupil to encourage them to improve the relevant feature, and respond to 'dialogue' from last piece of work. This all needs to be written in clear sentences so the pupil can understand easily.You can't use codes or shortcuts.)

How many books do you think a teacher has to mark in a week?

How many hours of marking would that be, per week, would you say?

I do agree that the NUT are barking up the wrong tree with their proposals, but the reasons behind them are perfectly sensible.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I don't see why teachers can't be more like consultants and use their training and pedagogy skills to 'manage' TAs and LSAs.

Children with disabilities are very badly let down by the fact that their TA's are no more than babysitters who protect the teacher from their disruptive behaviours. TAs can be very valuable, but they need skills. Teachers can impart these skills and monitor and manage. A more effective model surely.

[Arisbottle]

I am crap at admin, very willing to admit to that . That is why I have someone much more organised than me to do my admin . They are cheaper and quicker than me . I stick to what I am good to.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

3 years ago TheNeb, when he retired.

[TheNebulousBoojum]

When I was a student teacher, I was told not to spend more than an hour creating a work card. A single work card.
One of the best things my college did was insist that every teacher-trainer spend a term as a class teacher every 5 years. Practise what you preach, and some of them struggled.

[orangeandlemons]

Sometimes the speed at which I work amazes me! I never walk, always jog trot, never wee, eat on the go, do 30 things at once and try not to make phone calls as no time.My stomach always feels churned up and I often have indigestion. The other day, I was unlocking a cupboard which required bending over, thus eating a sandwich upside down and talking to a student at the same time. I'm did think to myself that this was crazy

[orangeandlemons]

I never ever see a TA. We don't have them in my subject because its not English, Maths or Science. So who do I instruct? Also TA's don't do duty at my school, but teachers do

[tethersend]

Starlight, that would only work if teachers received more than rudimentary SEN training. I would like to see an SEN specialism for training teachers in the same way as subject specialisms are available, then each school employing at least one SEN specialist who could manage and train TAs (and teachers) as you describe. Mind you, you'd have to start paying TAs for the time spent training, as currently many are paid hourly.

[Squarepebbles]

I disagree Starlight.

It is far easier to become a TA.I tried to "impart skills" as a teacher and sorry it was nigh on impossible with some. As a parent helper I've been appalled by some of the incorrect pronunciation re phonics alone that I've overheard by TAs.

Then there is the class management.

Teachers teach and TAs assist because they are two different jobs with different training and pay.

If TAs are going to be teachers they need teacher qualifications,training,pay and conditions(expecting a TA on teach all morning without a break is not on).

[heggiehog]

whokilleddannylatimer

Teachers are contracted and paid for whichever band of the pay scale they are on, but it is spread out over 12 months. Just like TAs, our contracts and our pay only covers term time and school hours, around 32 hours a week I believe.

[Squarepebbles]

Oh and I have a friend who is a TA who often gets left with the class,funny thing is she never gets given a TA like the teacher has.

I think far too many kids are already having too many poor quality lessons not covered by teachers,they certainly don't need anymore.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

If TA's can be expected to be soley responsible for the teaching of a child with complex SEN, deliver the SALT and OT in their statement and run social skills groups then afaic they are sufficiently comptentent to deliver elements of a mainstream lesson, particularly the more rote-aspects.

[mousebacon]

I agree with previous posters that it is not the teaching time that needs to be cut but the endless paperwork. APP, in triplicate, for 30 children, plus annotations cross referenced to their books etc helps no one.

Marking 90 books every day takes time. Every piece of work needs a positive comment linked to the outcomes of the lesson and then a 'next step' for that child's learning. My school have also introduced a 3 different colours of highlighter pen on top of the marking comments too.

I've recently dropped down to 0.8 (4 days) and the letter I received from the council stated that my contracted hours were now 25.95. Oh how I laughed.

Now I work in early years instead of key stage two I only get 30 minutes break all day - just enough time to tidy and set up for the afternoon.

I actually wish more parents could see what we do everyday (not to mention the MPs) just so they could comprehend what we deal with in terms of behaviour, expectations, target setting, lunch duties etc. I get the impression from many people that there's this belief that anyone can do my job (take Gove saying mums should cover strike action, for example). Far fewer people would believe this nonsense if they spent a day or two in school.

To those people who asked why we cannot just reuse old planning, it's because not only do the children change from class to class but the curriculum requirements differ, topics change, schools change their planning formats oh and if you're 'caught' using old planning you get bollocked for not individualising your planning

[FrillyMilly]

So what is the average salary for a teacher? 32 hours a week over 38 weeks a year is not a lot really even for the starting salary for a NQT. Surely it is expected that you will have to do more than that. Most people do more than their contracted hours in any profession. In my experience the average contracted hours in a non teaching profession is 37 hours a week with 4-6 weeks paid holiday. Do teachers find their workload matches this even if it is not done over those hours? I really have no idea about a teachers workload.

[heggiehog]

"I think far too many kids are already having too many poor quality lessons not covered by teachers,they certainly don't need anymore."

That's a separate issue though. Nobody here is promoting unlawful practice and use of unqualified TAs? If that is really happening at the school you know, then it shouldn't be.

[orangeandlemons]

The holidays are right, but the 37 hour week is longer.

[Arisbottle]

I work 3200 hours over 40 weeks. If I just had five weeks holiday I would still be doing 68 hours a week.

I acknowledge that I am a senior teacher , as a standard teacher I worked about 70-75 hours for 40 weeks. Spread over 47 weeks that is between 59 and 63 hours a week.

[Squarepebbles]

It is widespread,as was reported only just this week.

So what is going to happen at 1pm when the 4 hours are up?Who is going to be teaching?That would be the TAs then.

[Arisbottle]

Hopes my maths is right

[heggiehog]

FrillyMilly

I generally work between 60-70 hours a week, as do all of my colleagues, and all the other teachers I know. On a very good week I might do 50 hours but that usually only happens once a term.

So, at least 28 hours above my contract every week.

It now takes 5 years of training and £36,000 of student debt (in fees alone) to become a fully qualified teacher. For this you will start on a salary of around £21,500 a year.

Hours vary but I honestly don't know any full time teachers who do less than 60 hours a week.

I don't know what the average salary is but I don't think it is actually very representative of what most teachers get, especially if London weighting isn't taken into consideration when calculating the average.

[heggiehog]

It won't be 1pm, squarepebbles, children do have breaktimes and a one hour lunch time too.

[Arisbottle]

Actually I am lying and do not want to mislead . After mid May my working hours drop.