Tell me about getting in to a selective STATE grammar school please.

[LupusinaLlamasuit]

Yes, yes, yes. I know. It is wrong and shabby and my socialist principles will have to go in the bin and I will have to hand back my Trotsky hat and badge blah blah blah.

It is probably even MORE wrong than a private selective school.

But we are weighing up all the options, and the most likely is still the decent 'normal' state school just up the road.

But I just want to have a look at it (the out of county selective grammar) and see. So before I do, I need to know what I need to know IYSWIM. There will be examinations and 'inside information' and stuff won't there?

He is very bright but guess he will need practice papers, yes? Is it worth doing the exam just to see or is that too stressful allround and do we risk losing a place at the local school therein?

Thanks

[snorkle]

He would make new friends Lupus, and have a higher chance of finding likeminded friends too, but they probably wouldn't be local.

[Fennel]

wrote a long post and deleted it as am trying not to get too involved.

but IME, you can have likeminded friends in a variety of ways, and one benefit of a comp is that you can be close friends with people who would not have passed the 11+. Some of my closest friends are still people from my comp, and some of them would not have passed an 11+, whereas I was always an academic type, but we still had/have lots in common.

[seeker]

The problem is that if you live in a grammar school area, there are no comprehensive schools. A school without the "top" (for want of a better word) 23% is not a comprehensive school.

[blametheparents]

seeker - I completely agree. I would love to live in an area with decent comprehensive schools with children acros the spectrum of academic ability.
However we live in Kent where the grammar school system means that there are not really any decent true comprehensive schools which is a shame.

[mumblechum]

Echoing the last 2 posters. If ds hadn't got in he would have gone to a highschool with only about 55% GCSE AtoCs (as opposed to 100% at GS), or private at a cost of over £100k for the 7 yrs.

[Fennel]

Yes that's true Seeker and I don't think of schools with a nearby grammar as comps, whatever they might be called. But the OP seems to be talking as though most of the local children won't be considering the grammar, is that right? It does make a big difference, I agree.

[Simples]

Lupus
have you my email? am nto sure who you are.
I can fill you in.

[Fennel]

Isn't 55% pass rate grades A-C at GCSE around the national average?

Round here, in a quite sought after area, all 4 of the local schools have a pass rate of 40% or less, and there aren't grammars (well there are but over an hour away, a few children go). The private schools and a religious secondary cream off an inordinate number. 55% would be a good passs rate round here. 70% would be very good.

[LupusinaLlamasuit]

Thanks again all, will digest comments

Simples, I think I do but not absolutely sure. I am w i l f s e l l at gmail dot com

but no spaces obv!

63% GCSE grades A-C at local comp.

That is good right?

[LupusinaLlamasuit]

100% at the GS
98% the year before...

See, there is a large cohort of bright kids who do go to the local comp and no, because of the distance and out of county thing, lots do not go to the GS (though some do apply... I don't know of any who go yet though). Very good local private school which seems to cream off the very wealthy and some bright kids.

But lots of principled academics like me send their kids to the comp.

And no doubt some of them ask the same questions before sticking to their principles and conviction about bright, well-supported kids do well at school whatever and recognise school is so much more than qualifications. And some of them chuck principles out of the window in order to get the VERY BEST QUALIFICATIONS for their little PFB.



Must work instead.

[MrsWobble]

i wouldn't get hung up on the overall % which is an average and very dependent on the range of pupils. what you need to know is what the pupils at the higher ability end of the spectrum achieve, on the basis that if you are considering grammar schools your children are expected to do well. provided there are sufficient pupils scoring A grades then the school is likely to have the potential to suit your child. what you should be careful of is a school that aims to improve its % score of 5 A-Cs by, for example, not allowing pupils to sit more than 5 or having a curriculum heavily weighted to non-academic options.

[LupusinaLlamasuit]

You see MrsWobble that is just the kind of info I wouldn't have thought about. Thanks.

How do I find out those things? Ask the comp school? Would they consider it a normal, or a challenging, question?

[MrsWobble]

i just typed a long post and lost it - so here's a summary which i hope makes sense.

i expect the schools will prepare an information pack for prospective pupils and would expect they would include a table of GCSE results by grade and subject, A level results by grade and subject and a list of 6th form leaver destinations.

I looked at these to see that there were a reasonable number of A grades in all the academic subjects and that most pupils took at least 8 of these at GCSE and 3 at A level. I looked for a reasonable number of 6th formers moving on to "top" universities.

On this basis I reckoned that if my child was capable of A* grades then the school was capable of teaching to that level and, equally important, that there would be enough like minded pupils at the school for my child to have a reasonable social experience too.

Having applied this filter I then visited the schools to get a feel for the less black and white issues like the attitude of the head, the ethos and overall feel of the school etc.

If you have a year 4/5 child i would have thought that a phone call to the school should get you the prospective year 7 pack.

[LupusinaLlamasuit]

thanks mrsw, no sixth forms round here so will be v difficult to assess those things. Will ring them next week and ask about info packs. Somehow doubt they will have one since they haven't replied to an email I sent many many days ago...

[margotfonteyn]

It is true about the percentages getting 5 GCSEs or more being the average and therefore your child will be in the percentage that get the top results.......or so you think, NOW.

My worry was, and I see it with friends DCs in high achieving comps, is the continual need to stay in the top sets or whatever, so they can achieve the very top grades. My DS1 is bright but v v lazy and I don't think he would have kept up the momentum. It just would have been endless nagging, nagging, nagging.

At least in the GS he was just taught at the higher level all the way through, no question of being put into 'foundation' level GCSEs, no opportunity to do really 'soft' subjects and so he did pass them all(as they all do, 100%). Given the opportunity to work at a lower level and take easier subjects, I suspect he would have done. It could have gone the other way, (eg he got super competitive and tried to 'beat' everyone) but I very much doubt it.

Unfortunately at 10years old, no-one really knows if their DC is going to 'flip' in the teenage years, when all these decisions need to be made as regards GCSE choices.

We just wanted him to get a decent set of GCSEs under his belt, and that is what a GS achieves. People may argue it is not particularly nice for them, but it does give them actual 'choices' later on, if they don't want to pursue an academic career after GCSEs then fine. (My DS1 did through is own choice, and is at university now....).

I am absolutely NOT saying children do not achieve highly at a comprehensive, I just think they do need to be more self motivated and going to a GS does take some of the onus away from the parents and children.

[southernsoftie]

margotfonteyn - we recently spoke to ds's primary school head about the right place for him to go for secondary. Her dd had just finished at the nearest comprehensive and is going on to do medicine at uni, but she said exactly what you did. For those reasons she advised us to think v carefully about sending ds to that school as it has a wide spectrum of ability (as you would expect at a comprehensive) and she felt that there was a risk that ds (who is academically able)might take the easy option if given the chance.

Having said that we will not go for the most academic option either because we want ds to be in an environment where social skills are developed just as much as academic ability. As with so much, it is horses for courses, the comprehensive will probably be fine for dd who is good at motivating herself (maybe it's a girl thing).

[RemusLupinInAWizardsuit]

margot, what makes you say 'people may argue it is not particularly nice for them'? Do you mean that kids don't enjoy GS? Has your son?

I'm really interested to get a balanced view, hearing what goes wrong as well as what goes right...

[seeker]

Another thing to remember that there are NO comprehensive schools in grammar school areas. We very much wanted to send our children to a true comprehensive school, but they don't exist in places where the "top" 23% is creamed off to the grammar school.

[MrsWobble]

Lupus - I think Margot's point is that you need to think about how your child learns as well as how much they are capable of learning. the right school for a self starter is not necessarily the right school for someone who needs more active management. the right school for a confident child is not necessarily the right school for one who needs more approbation etc

You also need to be as ruthlessly objective as possible about your child's abilities - struggling at the bottom of a high achieving academic school might not be better than doing well at a slightly less prestigious school. i think this can be a real issue in London where there is more of a view that school A is better than school B etc. Because children are different I don't believe it's possible for there to be an objectively "best school" - and even if there is it's irrelevant to working which is the "right school" for your child.

I know when we first looked at secondary schools for our children there was one that I loved and my children disliked (having been taken to it indepedently in different years). And I think this is because the things I loved about it - the independence, range of activities, freedom and individual empowerment - were all appealing to me as an adult whilst to an overawed 10year old it was too sophisticated, unstructured, unsupported and frankly scary. Now, if my children had been the product of a sophisticated prep school, rather than a state primary, that might have been what they wanted too and could have coped with.

In my opinion, getting the emotional side of the decision right is far more important than the academics - a happy child will thrive and do well wherever they are. An unhappy child doesn't bear thinking about. And this doesn't mean you let them choose - it means you have to work out who and what they are and are likely to become.

[RemusLupinInAWizardsuit]

Thank you Mrs W. What a very eloquent and helpful post.

We have been grappling with those very issues: just what is the right combination of things for our son etc... And it seems (on this side of the decision) such a final and important one.

We will be looking hard at the schools in the autumn, with a view to finding a good balance of personal and academic support. We only really have 2-3 choices so hoping they will be right!

Have been a bit naive about the reaction of others (not here but in RL) to the GS option. It is not a common choice round here and some people have been upset that we might consider it, because of the potential impact upon their child (breaking up friendship groups etc).

This has surprised me a bit though it probably shouldn't have. I suppose if my son really expresses a strong preference to be where his primary friends are then we will take that seriously. But I am not sure I would consider anyone else's child crucial to my own child's education/future? That's a bit naive on their part isn't it?

[MrsWobble]

i agree with you re primary friendships. they will survive on into adulthood if they are based on more than just proximity. they won't survive into yr 8 if they're not, even if they go to the same school. it's part of growing up.

[margotfonteyn]

My DS1 (the lazy one) absolutely loved his GS! When he left, he said he had been so happy there (really!). If he had not been so happy, it would have seriously coloured my judgement on the school.

What I meant about 'some people may argue it isn't nice' or whatever, was referring to the point that he went there and was not allowed to take 'soft' subjects etc. Some people in RL commented to me at the time that it was 'nice' for their DCs to do non academic subjects etc. You will find you get these comments all the time from non GS acquaintances, that it's all work and no play etc. But my DS1 did far more play than work. No-one will believe me, but it is true. He could have actually achieved much better GCSE results,to be honest (all A*s etc)but he was taught to a certain level that ensured he passed his GCSEs, but he wasn't prepared to put in the hard slog. Hence my worry had he not been forced encouraged to do more than the bare minimum.

However, he did not know differently, did not mind, just did the subjects he was given.

As far as friendships from primary school, there was only 1 from his previous school at the GS, he was friendly for a term or so with him but then made friends with 4 boys all from different schools and he is still best friends with them to this day (now 21 and all at different universities).

DS2 also only had 1 other child from same school and he has made fantastic friends too.

You have to grow a very thick skin if you are the only one of your parental peers considering a GS. It is quite difficult when all the others are off to the local comp but people soon forget about it once they are all settled in their new schools. My DS2 still sees friends from his primary school in the holidays.

[MrsBartlet]

Seeker it is not true to say that there are no comprehensive schools in grammar school areas. It may be true where you live but here the grammar schools only take a very small percentage of pupils (2-3%) and so there are many bright children in the comprehensives as well. The grammar school system is very different in different parts of the country.

Remus - I wouldn't worry about friendship groups if your son really wants to go to the GS. Dd has just finished Y7 at a GS which she desperately wanted to go to. She was the only one from her school to go but she has made many new friends and I think her new group of friends is already a much stronger one than her group at primary.

[seeker]

Sorry - Kentcentric post.

In Kent there are no compehensive schools......

Oh and grammar schools do "soft" subjects too - or do Textiles, DT , Food Technology and drama not count as "soft"?

[foofi]

There are comprehensive schools in Kent - although as the top kids have been creamed off by grammar schools they don't really have the full ability range!