Anyone else struggling with whether independent is financially feasible?

[pembelimum]

DS has been offered a secondary place at a selective London independent school. I put him in for the 11+ in the autumn following a bit of a panic after lockdown disruption to end of year 5 and because going into year 6 he seemed quite unhappy in his state primary - which is the main feeder (same site and overall principal) for the local secondary where he’s sure to get a place. Seems he was being picked on for not having a mobile phone/games console like some of the other kids and was getting called ‘swot’ and ‘nerd’. He’s pretty bright and curious but I think he really feels he has to hide it currently. He’s very quiet during his online lessons and seems reluctant to put the camera on or contribute even though I know he’s interested in the subjects. In short, I’m worried local secondary is going to be hard for him. I went to a state school where it wasn’t cool to be clever and had a pretty awful time. I’d really love to be able to avoid that for him. DH is on quite a low income - which has turned into almost no income since the start of the pandemic. I’m in a professional job with a good salary (so probably just put of bursary territory) and so could just afford the fees (though with next to nothing leftover). We also have a younger child who will start secondary in 5 years (when DS will start sixth form) and who has additional learning needs. I think I could just afford the independent for my DS, and from what I know of the school I think he’d absolutely love it, but can’t see myself being able to do it for both of them when younger sibling starts secondary. My DM has offered to help out when we get to that point but I’m nervous about relying on that and wonder whether she has underestimated how much she’ll need for her retirement. I’m really struggling to decide whether to accept the place or not. I want it so much for DS but can’t quite see how I can make it feasible.

@blankscreen how long ago was this? It's just that schools are ranked on progress scores not % 5 A-C now, so they have to focus on each child making sufficient progress from their SATS starting point. A C for a child who smashed SATS wouldn't be good enough.

That's not to say there aren't still some bad comprehensives.

I think a big problem is the independent fees go up and up. I humoured my husband by looking at one independent school for DD (DH was educated privately the whole way through), but as I thought, we could neither afford it in the slightest but nor did we even remotely qualify for any financial support (as indeed we shouldn't really).

In the end DH, to my relief, said while its facilities were lovely it didn't seem massively better than the state schools we looked at. I think when we first met he was the sort of person who was certain his kids would be educated privately!

DSS would have sat GCSEs had they not been cancelled.

That was how we felt. As I say just our experience of one school.

I’d send him to the independent.

My son got into a dud of a state secondary school. He's also got a place at a good independent school which we'd applied to as back up and so he went there (it was our first choice and he loves it). I felt really panicky to start with and then really resentful at having to fork out £2K a month (the latter was due to all my friends' kids getting into top notch state secondaries so it felt like they were getting the same as me but for free). Obviously I just had to suck it up and with time I've just got used to it. I took on extra work and also added £60K to my mortgage to use as a buffer if needed. I don't think the school has lots of expensive extras but it's more that when my boy socialises he tends to spend a lot typically on food - Nandos, Byron etc and that was from the age of 12/13. I'm now going to give him a set weekly allowance and if he goes over that it has to come out of his birthday/Xmas money.

If you couldn’t do it for both I wouldn’t do it for one.
You say he feels the odd one out, I went to a very posh school (a fair while ago now...) would he feel the odd one out surrounded by kids who’s parents hobby is owning 5 racehorses, have 3/4 holidays a year and he’s one of the only ones in the year who can’t afford the school skiing trip?
It depends on how affluent the independent is, but I had a good friend who I went to school with who’s grandma paid her fee and she was very very unsettled the whole time as she didn’t ride/shoot/ski/row/sail, didn’t own a schoffel, etc. I’ve really fond memories of school, she hated it.

Also if it’s a huge stress on home finances (and fees hike year on year) an older teen will pick up on that and it is a huge pressure.

It seems clear that you can’t afford it, unless you and your H can increase your income.

I think you would be pleasantly surprised that not all families with kids in independents are rolling in it! Also you are talking about affording it on your salary alone. I guess this means at some point DH would be back working again and therefore finances would improve anyway.

There is the option of your older child going back into state for 6th form if need her to be able to afford similar for younger DC or indeed finances may have improved to allow him to stay one too.

Interested in these schools where you feel left out if you don't ski or ride? Are we talking boarding/public? I think there's a big difference between these and a standard independent or times have changed dramatically. I went to an academic independent secondary in London from 11 and don't remember for one second feeling poor or unfortunate or even comparing myself to any of my classmates. Every holiday was spent with GPs or on a campsite, we didn't eat out or ski. School uniform/PE equipment was second hand. The only extra money was spent on music lessons. Most of my friends were the same. To be honest thinking back the kids with pots if money probably downplayed it a bit. Are things very different now? I suppose house prices and school fees might have pushed up the average income of the independent school parent?

Dd went to an independent on a bursary from 11-16 and to be honest the vast majority of her year group were much better off than her. Not ponies because this was a city school, but big houses, loads of holidays, expensive birthday parties and presents etc. It was tricky at times and she definitely feels more at home in her grammar sixth form. She did enjoy the independent school though, and eventually she became circumspect about the wealth differences and realised the range of backgrounds was very skewed and we weren’t ‘poor’. It took a lot of work to get to that point though - mainly in year 8/9.

Does the independent offer places in future years? Our DD joined a local independent in year 9 (we moved back from living abroad) so perhaps he could start at the secondary and see how he gets on/how your finances are? DD wasn’t the only new student in year 9 so it worked ok for her.

@Dozer, you say it’s clear I can’t afford it, I’m really interested to know, is that based on the info I’ve shared here about my income? I’d love to know what people think one’s household income needs to be able to afford independent school fees at circa £20k? I think that should have been my original post. Really appreciate everyone’s thoughts, thank you!

There was a thread on here a few weeks back about what you would need to earn to afford private school. I think around £175-200k over 7 years was a minimum given schools' fees increases over a 7-year period. But obviously it depends on things like your outgoings, mortgage, capacity for promotion.

The secondary school sounds tricky given he's not very happy at the feeder, but there will be a bigger intake at 11. Have you had a chance to talk to teachers there and ask what they can do to challenge him if he's bright and what bullying, pastoral care they have in place?

I'd be slightly concerned about your younger child with learning difficulties who may need extra financial support. Would you be able to support them later if all your extra earnings are going to your older child?

Are there any other state options near you?

I think you’ve been unrealistic and that it’s not affordable unless both you and DH increase your incomes.

You’ve implied household income is not a huge amount over £70k a year, which seems low to cover fees of £20k.

DH was previously on a low income - almost no income since last spring.

If fees are around £20k now, and would assume at least 3%+ increase a year. You live in London, which is expensive.

You have a younger child with additional learning needs and stated that you couldn’t afford private for him. Even if you decide private wouldn’t be best for him, help for DC with additional needs is costly.

Your DM has ‘offered to help out’ should you try to fund private for DS2. unless she’s extremely wealthy, with substantial funds set aside should she need care, it seems unrealistic that she could give enough to make it affordable. Such help could also be withdrawn at no notice.

Presumably your current biggest cost is housing. Having no car or overseas holiday could, for example, reduce outgoings by £2k (running a car) and £3k (example difference in costs between budget UK and overseas holiday) a year. Not enough to make a huge difference.

Surely the obvious answer is for your DH to find a job that will cover the cost of the fees? I know that's not the easiest thing in the world at the moment, but it seems like you're not considering this as an option?

As others have said, moving should/could also be considered?

I think trying to pay fees out of a sole earner's salary will always be stressful and if it is a financial stretch, what happens if you face a really big bill or get ill enough to need some time off work? It sounds like it could be a constant source of stress, which isn't good for you or your children.

I'm a single mum on a 6-figure salary, but only just, so significantly below the allegedly required "£175-200K" and I am putting my kid through private school all the way. The prices of the various private schools can differ significantly and I just chose the one that was most affordable

@XelaM £175-200k was the cost of the school over 7 years not what the OP's income needs to be. She said it was a selective London school so would assume the fees are £6-7k a term.

If you’re worried before you start, that should be a big alarm bell.

Fees typically rise 3-5% per year and you have to compound that when you do the calculations. Most salaries are not rising at that rate, so unless you’re in for big pay rises, it will get harder, not easier.

The reality, is the vast vast majority if the population can’t afford this, and you probably are in that category.

Those on lower (relative to those paying fees, not the population overall) who afford it off a salary of under £80k, are often managing whilst not having a mortgage or housing costs, just 1 child and/or grandparent or bursary help, unless they are living in much much cheaper areas of the country where fees are significantly lower.

There is a difference between stretching yourself, but you can still afford a cheapest holiday, manage to replace the boiler or car, and your child can do things like go to birthday parties with presents, go on school day trips which cost extra, buy the uniform and perhaps go on the odd residential cheaper school trip and the alternative. The alernative stretching yourself for some people means no holidays for 5 years, living in fear of a big bill like the need for a boiler, the house going to rack no ruin and an inability to join in socially with anything due to costs. Some people do out themselves in this position too.

I too wouldn’t rely on a GP saying they will help out unless you’ve had detailed numbers conversations. They might not grasp the size of the fees or have worked out their own finances. Without involving an accountant who can say that yes, they can afford X amount without impinging their own lifestyle, including paying for care if it’s needed, it’s not viable to rely on GP, so you do have to be able to fund 2 yourself. And you do have to operate on the basis you have 2 kids not just 1.

Lots of people get to this point. They look and love what they see. They knew it would be marginal, but having looked and seen, it’s then hard to walk away....but after some serious calculations, loads do this every year because they realise independent senior education is a truly luxury product, that they simply cannot afford. It’s a pipe dream for lots and some talk of bursaries and it being more affordable than people think and families in low incomes being there, draws them into looking, but in reality it’s not affordable for the vast majority.

@pembelimum it sounds like it may require a real financial sacrifice for you as a family. Ultimately only you know whether this is worth it or not. Honestly though, in this situation, I think I'd be inclined give the state school a chance. Secondary is a much bigger pond and hopefully if the school is half decent he'll find his niche. It seems to me that academic achievement is celebrated at most London state schools these days. If things don't work out, maybe you could still move to a less selective independent down the line or to the same selective school at 13+ if they're willing to offer a place - to reduce the overall financial burden. You could explain the situation and ask them about it now so you know if it would be an option? Or consider moving house if that's an option. Good luck with whatever you decide.

The worries about feeling left out for not going on yearly ski holidays, are often trotted out and not a big concern really. Lots will, but lots won’t too.

Those who live in a standard family home and have a standard middle class lifestyle which covers some holidays (not necessarily fancy) some children’s activities which cost, and can replace cars and household items when needed without too much concern, plus able to join in socially with some days out which might cost are fine. Most adults and children associated with these schools aren’t looking to judge and cut people out if they don’t have luxury lifestyles.

But, if you can’t afford to participate at all, the. I think things can be difficult. So a parent who can never go for a coffee or lunch with other mums due to cost, or whose child cannot go to a birthday party because of taking a present, or who can’t have friends over ever, or who can’t go any any of the more basic school trips will struggle. This is often the case in state schools too. It’s no good cutting things so tight that social interaction isn’t possible, but you do t have to be living a luxury lifestyle to go or feel perfectly at home with the kids and families.....and this is especially so I think if you are coming from an educated background, where you have high self esteem based on your abilities and not just your wealth. When you and your kids value themselves because of who they are and what they can do, not just what they have, it really comes across to to others and often speaks volumes much more loudly than what you have in material terms.

My experience is that there is a real mix of incomes whilst also there definitely being a strata of higher earners. I would say a lot of GPs cough up where we are.

We had affordability issues after a few years as mainly only one salary now and filled in bursary forms and negotiated with them what we could afford. It wasn't a straight no way on their side. 10% wasn't going to make any difference to us! So I wouldn't take it as read that you aren't eligible. It really depends... but I would say it's worth exploring based on what you've said.

No advice OP but just to say I can relate to your post, although my kids are younger.

I had a very similar experience to you in that I went to a state secondary where it wasn't cool to be clever or work hard and I desperately don't want that for my DDs. I also work in an industry where the vast majority of people at my level went to a private school.

There does seem to be a huge variation though in secondary state provision.

WombatChocolate speaks a lot of sense.

We have private school offers but the more I think about it the more I realise we just can't stomach the costs. Such a shame as the independent seems so perfect and so special but I would be worried we would have heart attacks from the stress.

Does the school (or another you'd consider) do a 13+ entry? Could you save for two years and send you child then? Also, that way your second child wouldn't reach year 9 until the eldest had left.
I would certainly ask re bursaries. Round here they talk about not having second homes, more than 2 cars or multiple holidays abroad in some schools so I'd say you might get a small amount, especially if you say the alternative is to wait until year 9.