11+ or 13+ private secondary transfer for a boy in London - can't decide!

[MGMidget]

My son is in a private prep school where he can stay until 13. The school also supports departure at 11 although this has historically been mostly for the girls as there are fewer private secondary places for them at 13. We are in London and looking for a day pupil place for private secondary school not boarding. I can't decide whether it is best to focus on 11+ or 13+ and I am hoping that some mumsnetters can offer me their words of wisdom! The school head recommended waiting until 13 so DS have more time to mature (he is not the most mature of boys!). I would be happy to keep him in his current school until 13 but I am worried that it may be harder to find a good school place at 13 within an easy travelling distance. I also know our school head has previously stated he has an objective to increase the number of pupils staying until 13 so I am not sure he is giving us the best advice. Does anyone know if it is harder to get into the London day schools at 13 than at 11? And also do the boys really benefit from waiting until 13 to transfer to secondary school or are they then under greater pressure to settle in quickly in the secondary school than if they transfer at 11? I would appreciate hearing what people's experiences have been. We are in South London so our target schools are West/South West/South and central London or a short train ride South/West of London. Our son is reasonably academic but not top tier so we haven't applied to St Paul's/Westminster and think KCS may be a stretch but Dulwich schools, Trinity/Whitgift, City of London, Emmanuel, Ibstock and Hampton are on our radar. And yes, I know some of this list are more academic than others and some have more places at 13 than others! I would be grateful to hear views.

That is an excellent post, ChocolateWombat. I agree with everything you write but could not possibly have written it as well.

Yes, beautifully explained by ChocolateWombat. It is increasingly pointless for preps that primarily feed to 11+ day schools to maintain any yr7/8 provision. It just confuses parents - particularly those who might not understand the major public school entry timetable.

Things are changing, but I don't see how - structurally - traditional 13+ boarding schools could possibly change their year of intake. And really the demands made of yr 9s in the most well known senior boarding schools aren't necessarily what you'd ask of an 11 year old. They need the extra two years to be ready. If they lowered their entrance to 11 not just accommodation but pastoral and teaching attitudes would have to undergo an immense shift.

There isn’t a huge appetite among parents for boarding at 11+. The appetite for boarding among traditional English parents is waning fast and the foreign parents who plug the gap by sending their DC to English boarding schools don’t want boarding schools that are entirely populated by non-Anglophone children (nor do English families want this). If you are a traditional English family, ask boarding schools for à fees discount. Many of those schools are desperate for your traditional English children!

Why couldn't boys' boarding schools start at 11? The girls' ones do, don't they, plus loads of people send their boy-children to boarding schools aged 7 and 8 don't they?

[Not saying I'd want to send my child away at 11, but I'm not in this market].

My ds did the 11+ to schools including one mentioned from a state school and it was very straightforward, albeit stressful. All over by middle of January, results in February, joined school in September. In contrast, the boys 13+ seems so convoluted. Exams in y6 then having to hang around a school for two years they'd likely grown out of all the while with the senior school dangling temptingly (with loads of boys all getting to know each other in y7 and 8). I can't see why anyone would want to do 13+ and I can completely see why senior day schools in London are eliminating the 13+ or as good as. The 11+ means state schools and girls and so seems more egalitarian.

Why couldn't boys' boarding schools start at 11?

I'm going to ask a relevant boy next time I speak to him!

In the meantime - I'll ponder the question based on the senior boys' boarding school I'm most familiar with. (Probably the one most people have heard most about - accurate or otherwise.)

The school is pretty much a town in itself. And boys have to take on a good deal of responsibility for themselves as soon as they get there. (And this isn't their 'home' town so it's not the same.) There would need to be much more hand holding from pastoral and academic staff if they had little 11 year olds wandering around.

To accommodate yr 11s and year 12s in the boarding houses would necessitate a smaller intake of yr 13s over several years. Thus disrupting the balance of ages throughout the school.

They would probably want to reassess the recruitment of pastoral and academic staff - because presumably the people who apply currently want to teach in the more robust 13+ environment.

They'd need some planning and liaison with uniform and sportswear providers to cater for littler boys!

Possibly it might mean fewer boys coming from further afield - because of natural parental hesitation - thus narrowing the breadth and diversity of intake.

Tired now! Sure there are a milliion more reasons.

I wouldn't imagine I could predict what will happen with the boarding schools into the future.

However, what I would say, is that private education is a market, like any other market and schools are businesses as well as being charities and providers of education. In the end, regardless of which age schools might prefer to start or end at, the availability and willingness of potential customers to buy the product will determine what is supplied. The market in Lomdon and the south-east is different in that there are more potential customers and a much bigger market, but we know that in many areas, independent schools of all types can struggle to recruit and attract enough paying pupils even now. No doubt niche markets will continue to exist, but when niche markets are shrinking, those that supply the niche market (Prep schools) also have to adapt to survive and probably fewer Preps will go to 13 in another 5 and then 10 years than do now.

We are certainly in a period of change. There has been growth in day provision and a decline in full boarding from UK families. In a competitive London and South-east market, Senior schools are looking to protect their futures in a number of ways; they are merging with and taking over Junior schools to secure part of their senior school intake, they are setting up international franchises abroad, they are starting to move away from what was once a primarily 13+ intake, towards a much greater dependence on 11+, whilst initially trying to keep in with their 13+ feeder Preps. Those day schools which are most popular and sought after seem to increasingly realise their power and that whilst they don't want to totally upset their 13+ feeder preps by abandoning 13+ altogether, don't need to offer too much because they have enough 11+ feeder Preps and state school candidates applying. They want to secure their customers for 7 years instead of just 5 and secure them sooner. And the Preps don't have much control over this, but have to judge each year and into the longer term, if they will have enough children in Yr7 and 8 to make a viable provision and if they can offer enough security and certainty to parents wanting to stay in Prep. And these decisions on the day schools do have knock-on effects to boarding schools to. Yes, there are some very wealthy families who have a history of boarding and who wouldn't consider anything else, but there are also many for whom full boarding fees for three or four children is a stretch too far, plus for many, the idea of full boarding just doesn't appeal. Increasingly, most boarding schools offer flexi boarding, weekly boarding and many have a number of day pupils too - again, the balance is shifting and the direction of travel seems clear for British families. There are regularly threads on MN about families seeking schools which are full boarding with lots of British children.....and not that many can be found, as the schools adapt to the changing market, by offering more boarding options beyond full boarding and fill their places with international students too.

There will always be an elite few schools which are heavily over-subscribed and have no problems in filling their expensive places with those willing and able to pay for full boarding. However, the number that can do that seem to be dwindling and the others turn to widen their offering and find other ways to keep going. Some have already started taking in at 11+ too or have expanded their Preps to become an intake place for 11+, effectively running from 11. No doubt many don't really want to take 11 year olds and the staff might not feel that is their forte, and there might be practical implications for numbers further up the school etc etc, but schools do have to be aware of trends and adapt in order to survive. I guess the ancient schools have always done that in one form or another in order to still be around today, and all of the good ones will constantly be looking to what is going on and what they might need to do to adjust and secure their futures....parents would expect nothing less. Parents need to keep abreast of what is going on too - no-one wants to be caught in a position where systems and procedures and plans which would have worked fine a few years ago, are suddenly out of date and few options remain.

I am just coming back on this thread to thank everyone (and especially ChocolateWombat) for the amount of thought you have put into your responses which were very helpful! We ultimately decided on a shortlist of 6 schools - 3 with pre-tests for 13+ and 3 for 11+ exit so we will see how it goes. Having the option to stay until 13 has given us the confidence to try for some of the more academic schools, knowing that even if we don't get in anywhere we still have another chance with exams in year 8 for some schools!

I do agree on not relying exclusively on the prep schools for advice when it comes to London Day schools. I think the competition is stiff and they cannot predict or steer children to one particular school as so much depends on performance on the day of the tests/interviews.

Oh glad you have decided and you are very welcome. Doing some pre-tests at 11 for the 13+ entry sounds a good idea, and doing them at similar times to 11+ means you'll have got the exams out if the way in Yr6, plus you'll have your place and certainty Yr6 too, even if you're not leaving for another 2 years. You'll feel much more in control than those who only sit exams or are reliant on common entrance in Yr8, well after most places have been given out.

Best of luck with it all.

Chocolate, I have to say your posts are very illuminating and agree with other posters offering the view of leaving earlier than later. My person fresh experience is that if the schools of your choice have both 11+ and 13+ Intakes, try the 11+ entry instead of 13+. My son is currently in Year 6, I felt lucky that I applied both 11+(2 schools) besides 13+ schools (4 London day schools and 2 outside London boarding), that means DS had to do ISEB tests on computer in November 2018, and then 8 schools tests and interviews. I would be at an uncomfortable position if I have not received two firm 11+ offers On Feb 15. Lesson learned: The earlier you can leave or receive an unconditional offer, the better. I do not recommend any one to do 13+ if there is 11+ entry in the same school, because the timeline of the pre-test, exam, interview is soooo long. For example, I have already accepted 11+ offer while some of the 13+ offer decisions haven't be deliberated. The bad side of having DS sitting both 11+ and 13+ is that it is challenging for DS and for myself. The good side of it is that you are sure to only do ONE round, no second round or third round at year 7 or year 8. By the way, having already 11+ secured, we are only prepared to accept 13+ Unconditional offers, do not want to do anything about Common Entrance curriculum or exam. Hope it can help struggled parents. I learned a lot and made a lot of mistakes on the way.