11+ or 13+ private secondary transfer for a boy in London - can't decide!

[MGMidget]

My son is in a private prep school where he can stay until 13. The school also supports departure at 11 although this has historically been mostly for the girls as there are fewer private secondary places for them at 13. We are in London and looking for a day pupil place for private secondary school not boarding. I can't decide whether it is best to focus on 11+ or 13+ and I am hoping that some mumsnetters can offer me their words of wisdom! The school head recommended waiting until 13 so DS have more time to mature (he is not the most mature of boys!). I would be happy to keep him in his current school until 13 but I am worried that it may be harder to find a good school place at 13 within an easy travelling distance. I also know our school head has previously stated he has an objective to increase the number of pupils staying until 13 so I am not sure he is giving us the best advice. Does anyone know if it is harder to get into the London day schools at 13 than at 11? And also do the boys really benefit from waiting until 13 to transfer to secondary school or are they then under greater pressure to settle in quickly in the secondary school than if they transfer at 11? I would appreciate hearing what people's experiences have been. We are in South London so our target schools are West/South West/South and central London or a short train ride South/West of London. Our son is reasonably academic but not top tier so we haven't applied to St Paul's/Westminster and think KCS may be a stretch but Dulwich schools, Trinity/Whitgift, City of London, Emmanuel, Ibstock and Hampton are on our radar. And yes, I know some of this list are more academic than others and some have more places at 13 than others! I would be grateful to hear views.

[yanjian]

Chocolate, I have to say your posts are very illuminating and agree with other posters offering the view of leaving earlier than later. My person fresh experience is that if the schools of your choice have both 11+ and 13+ Intakes, try the 11+ entry instead of 13+. My son is currently in Year 6, I felt lucky that I applied both 11+(2 schools) besides 13+ schools (4 London day schools and 2 outside London boarding), that means DS had to do ISEB tests on computer in November 2018, and then 8 schools tests and interviews. I would be at an uncomfortable position if I have not received two firm 11+ offers On Feb 15. Lesson learned: The earlier you can leave or receive an unconditional offer, the better. I do not recommend any one to do 13+ if there is 11+ entry in the same school, because the timeline of the pre-test, exam, interview is soooo long. For example, I have already accepted 11+ offer while some of the 13+ offer decisions haven't be deliberated. The bad side of having DS sitting both 11+ and 13+ is that it is challenging for DS and for myself. The good side of it is that you are sure to only do ONE round, no second round or third round at year 7 or year 8. By the way, having already 11+ secured, we are only prepared to accept 13+ Unconditional offers, do not want to do anything about Common Entrance curriculum or exam. Hope it can help struggled parents. I learned a lot and made a lot of mistakes on the way.

[ChocolateWombat]

Oh glad you have decided and you are very welcome. Doing some pre-tests at 11 for the 13+ entry sounds a good idea, and doing them at similar times to 11+ means you'll have got the exams out if the way in Yr6, plus you'll have your place and certainty Yr6 too, even if you're not leaving for another 2 years. You'll feel much more in control than those who only sit exams or are reliant on common entrance in Yr8, well after most places have been given out.

Best of luck with it all.

[MGMidget]

I am just coming back on this thread to thank everyone (and especially ChocolateWombat) for the amount of thought you have put into your responses which were very helpful! We ultimately decided on a shortlist of 6 schools - 3 with pre-tests for 13+ and 3 for 11+ exit so we will see how it goes. Having the option to stay until 13 has given us the confidence to try for some of the more academic schools, knowing that even if we don't get in anywhere we still have another chance with exams in year 8 for some schools!

I do agree on not relying exclusively on the prep schools for advice when it comes to London Day schools. I think the competition is stiff and they cannot predict or steer children to one particular school as so much depends on performance on the day of the tests/interviews.

[ChocolateWombat]

I wouldn't imagine I could predict what will happen with the boarding schools into the future.

However, what I would say, is that private education is a market, like any other market and schools are businesses as well as being charities and providers of education. In the end, regardless of which age schools might prefer to start or end at, the availability and willingness of potential customers to buy the product will determine what is supplied. The market in Lomdon and the south-east is different in that there are more potential customers and a much bigger market, but we know that in many areas, independent schools of all types can struggle to recruit and attract enough paying pupils even now. No doubt niche markets will continue to exist, but when niche markets are shrinking, those that supply the niche market (Prep schools) also have to adapt to survive and probably fewer Preps will go to 13 in another 5 and then 10 years than do now.

We are certainly in a period of change. There has been growth in day provision and a decline in full boarding from UK families. In a competitive London and South-east market, Senior schools are looking to protect their futures in a number of ways; they are merging with and taking over Junior schools to secure part of their senior school intake, they are setting up international franchises abroad, they are starting to move away from what was once a primarily 13+ intake, towards a much greater dependence on 11+, whilst initially trying to keep in with their 13+ feeder Preps. Those day schools which are most popular and sought after seem to increasingly realise their power and that whilst they don't want to totally upset their 13+ feeder preps by abandoning 13+ altogether, don't need to offer too much because they have enough 11+ feeder Preps and state school candidates applying. They want to secure their customers for 7 years instead of just 5 and secure them sooner. And the Preps don't have much control over this, but have to judge each year and into the longer term, if they will have enough children in Yr7 and 8 to make a viable provision and if they can offer enough security and certainty to parents wanting to stay in Prep. And these decisions on the day schools do have knock-on effects to boarding schools to. Yes, there are some very wealthy families who have a history of boarding and who wouldn't consider anything else, but there are also many for whom full boarding fees for three or four children is a stretch too far, plus for many, the idea of full boarding just doesn't appeal. Increasingly, most boarding schools offer flexi boarding, weekly boarding and many have a number of day pupils too - again, the balance is shifting and the direction of travel seems clear for British families. There are regularly threads on MN about families seeking schools which are full boarding with lots of British children.....and not that many can be found, as the schools adapt to the changing market, by offering more boarding options beyond full boarding and fill their places with international students too.

There will always be an elite few schools which are heavily over-subscribed and have no problems in filling their expensive places with those willing and able to pay for full boarding. However, the number that can do that seem to be dwindling and the others turn to widen their offering and find other ways to keep going. Some have already started taking in at 11+ too or have expanded their Preps to become an intake place for 11+, effectively running from 11. No doubt many don't really want to take 11 year olds and the staff might not feel that is their forte, and there might be practical implications for numbers further up the school etc etc, but schools do have to be aware of trends and adapt in order to survive. I guess the ancient schools have always done that in one form or another in order to still be around today, and all of the good ones will constantly be looking to what is going on and what they might need to do to adjust and secure their futures....parents would expect nothing less. Parents need to keep abreast of what is going on too - no-one wants to be caught in a position where systems and procedures and plans which would have worked fine a few years ago, are suddenly out of date and few options remain.

[QuaterMiss]

Why couldn't boys' boarding schools start at 11?

I'm going to ask a relevant boy next time I speak to him!

In the meantime - I'll ponder the question based on the senior boys' boarding school I'm most familiar with. (Probably the one most people have heard most about - accurate or otherwise.)

The school is pretty much a town in itself. And boys have to take on a good deal of responsibility for themselves as soon as they get there. (And this isn't their 'home' town so it's not the same.) There would need to be much more hand holding from pastoral and academic staff if they had little 11 year olds wandering around.

To accommodate yr 11s and year 12s in the boarding houses would necessitate a smaller intake of yr 13s over several years. Thus disrupting the balance of ages throughout the school.

They would probably want to reassess the recruitment of pastoral and academic staff - because presumably the people who apply currently want to teach in the more robust 13+ environment.

They'd need some planning and liaison with uniform and sportswear providers to cater for littler boys!

Possibly it might mean fewer boys coming from further afield - because of natural parental hesitation - thus narrowing the breadth and diversity of intake.

Tired now! Sure there are a milliion more reasons.

[Hothouseorflophouse]

Why couldn't boys' boarding schools start at 11? The girls' ones do, don't they, plus loads of people send their boy-children to boarding schools aged 7 and 8 don't they?

[Not saying I'd want to send my child away at 11, but I'm not in this market].

My ds did the 11+ to schools including one mentioned from a state school and it was very straightforward, albeit stressful. All over by middle of January, results in February, joined school in September. In contrast, the boys 13+ seems so convoluted. Exams in y6 then having to hang around a school for two years they'd likely grown out of all the while with the senior school dangling temptingly (with loads of boys all getting to know each other in y7 and 8). I can't see why anyone would want to do 13+ and I can completely see why senior day schools in London are eliminating the 13+ or as good as. The 11+ means state schools and girls and so seems more egalitarian.

[user1499173618]

There isn’t a huge appetite among parents for boarding at 11+. The appetite for boarding among traditional English parents is waning fast and the foreign parents who plug the gap by sending their DC to English boarding schools don’t want boarding schools that are entirely populated by non-Anglophone children (nor do English families want this). If you are a traditional English family, ask boarding schools for à fees discount. Many of those schools are desperate for your traditional English children!

[QuaterMiss]

Yes, beautifully explained by ChocolateWombat. It is increasingly pointless for preps that primarily feed to 11+ day schools to maintain any yr7/8 provision. It just confuses parents - particularly those who might not understand the major public school entry timetable.

Things are changing, but I don't see how - structurally - traditional 13+ boarding schools could possibly change their year of intake. And really the demands made of yr 9s in the most well known senior boarding schools aren't necessarily what you'd ask of an 11 year old. They need the extra two years to be ready. If they lowered their entrance to 11 not just accommodation but pastoral and teaching attitudes would have to undergo an immense shift.

[user1499173618]

That is an excellent post, ChocolateWombat. I agree with everything you write but could not possibly have written it as well.

[ChocolateWombat]

Regarding Common Entrance....you will find that most schools don't actually use it to make offers anymore or even as the basis of receiving the place. Schools which take in at 13 need to have made all their offers and had acceptances long before CE tests are taken and marked. They offer based on their own internal tests or using the electronic reasoning tests which are set for this purpose for independent schools and often taken in Preps. As has been said, increasingly these tests are sat in Yr6 and are effectively the same as 11+ but lead to a deferred entry offer for 13. CE is then taken in some Prep schools becaue it is a historic thing, it gives a continued focus to Yrs 7 and 8 which can be needed, especially if secondary offers have already been received and as has been said, no-one fails it. Certainly children get different levels but it is extremely rare for a child who has had an offer before CE (and all will have offers before this) to then be turned away following CE. If you look at admissions pages of schools which take in at 13 you will see that offers are made lomg before this. Most say something like 'CE results are used for internal setting purposes' - in actual fact they are often ignored totally, but still sat as a historic thing and to give Prep schools something to say they are offering in those last 2 years. 13+ senior also always have provision in admissions for those not able to do CE because the school they are in prior to this doesn't do it - showing how non-essential it is. The curriculum of CE is very content heavy and has increasingly been under scrutiny in terms of if it is useful or appropriTe as preparation for GCSE and the content and particularly skills which are needed there. Many places see it as dated and not a good preparation for the next phase. Indeed, if you look at some Preps which go to 13, some are dropping it altogether and developing their own curriculums, often in conjunction with the Seniors they feed, and with their support.

Essentially, we are in a time of transition for independent senior school start points and Prep ending points, especially for day schools. The move is very much for most children to leave Prep at 11 and for Seniors to take in the bulk of their intake then. The direction of travel is for this to continue and grow, reducing those in Preps until 13. Thing shave changed a lot in the last 5 years and will have changed again in 2 or 3 years, so bear in mind the direction of travel and that if your DC is in Yr 4 or 5 and you are thinking about this, by the time they are in Yr8, things will have moved on and that 11+ trend will have moved on too.

Yes, there will still be a small number of schools which exclusively take in at 13+. Yes, there will still need to be Preps to feed them, but many Preps which send most children to day schools simply won't be able to sustain the Yr7 and 8 sections for much longer, as numbers dwindle due to parents feeling under pressure not to miss the boat when there are more places available at 11+ and where day schools certainly will have fewer places available for 13+ and certainly for 13+ without a pre-test at 11. If a Prep is largely feeding boarding schools, then it's Yr7 and 8 has a better future ahead than if it mostly feeds day schools, or if it feeds schools which are gradually shifting their intakes towards more 11+.....and loads are doing this.

Some Seniors would really like to wholly move to 11+ intake. However they maintain Small 13+ to maintain good relations with the Preps...that really is the only reason for it in many cases, when Seniors know they can more than fill up at 11+. Preps can se the direction of travel in all of this and every year some drop their Yr7 and 8 or at least start pushing their children to do 11+ early testing for. 13+ places because they can see that leaving the decisions later and only being tested in yr8 really does reduce the options for most children and this change has been moving frighteningly fast.

I said before, and I'll say again, ask very specific questions of all the seniors you are interested in about numbers of places available at each entry point, applications per place and what they would recommend. Rely on what the seniors say most, as well as listening to advice from Preps. Look carefully at the admissions pages from the senior schools rather than just relying on the Preps. Make sure you understand the local market and what is available when and I which quantities.

And finally, one thing I think that needs to change a bit, is the idea of totally relying on the Prep school to lead parents through the choice and decision making process. Prep parents rightfully think they have paid for expert advice and insider knowledge and expect tailored advice about suitable schools. That is all correct. However, some Prep parents also seem to think this means that they have no responsibility or ability to carry out their own research. In the end, Prep Heads advise parents, but parents make the decisions for their children, and need to do so in receipt of full information. Too many I think, leave decision making too late....they trundle along with the idea that the Prep is driving it all and will inform them and make them aware of everything, and then they find they are towards the end of Yr5 and haven't really made any decisions and so facing exams in Yr6 seems too soon, so they feel relieved they have the choice to wait until Yr8, and think they lucky to have this luxury of ignoring the growing 11+ furore they hear about from parents in other schools. And then later in Yr 6 as other parents receive offers and people start talking more about where they will be going either at the end of yr6 or at the end of yr 8 based on a ore-test already sat, they then start to feel a bit uncomfortable that maybe they should have focused a hit sooner on it all and bittern the bullet and sat those earlier exams. It's not nice to spend Yr7 and 8 feeling you might have missed the boat. It doesn't mean you have to leave at 11 but I think that these days you need to have sat exams in Yr6 and got offers then, which means that you need to focus on making choices before mid Yr5, especially if you think any extra preparation might be needed, to allow time to do it, or to get fully involved in any programme the Prep is offering, or to ask for something tailor made if they aren't offering enough. 13+ Preps can give parents a sense that time is infinite in the decision making process and also that they don't need to think about it because the school will do everything,mbut in the end, parents need to decide and to do so in a timely manner. Already on this thread some parents say they have missed the 10+ boat or whatever. It's fine to decide not to get in a particular boat, but being aware of Ll the options and implications seems really important.

[user1499173618]

I have a family member with a son at City. She is going to move him as he is not terribly happy in the maths-focused Asian/Jewish competitive atmosphere (which would have suited my DCs just fine!) and would prefer more of an traditional English music and classics type ambiance.

[OVienna]

So to be clear, he never ended up taking the paper. I think some of his friends, however, and went. Locally you can probably get good info but if it would help to speak to a parent whose child went through it, let me know.

[OVienna]

@MGMidget

I have various friends whose sons have gone down the boarding school route. From what they have said, it seems to be quite rare for someone to fail the CE. However, this stretches a range of schools in terms of competition, from Stowe to Winchester etc. The Winchester kids worked quite hard but I also know a Winchester tutor personally who confirmed that they select very carefully at 11+ to avoid CE failures.

Less competitive boarding schools who, as user rightly notes, are accessing a declining pool of parents willing and able to pay their fees I would venture are unlikely to fail a child at CE.

City of London, on the other hand, could fill their seats many times over and I'd be more worried about that one. I think they would be more likely to fail someone but this is just speculation. Your DC would probably be fine but I'd try to get better information on that 13+. My friend's son was offered it but declined for a BS option.

[user1499173618]

I echo other posters: there is a slow but steady migration towards private day schools adopting the same main intake points as state schools, at 11+. This is not going to change, though the transition won’t be completed for a while yet. Prep schools will continue to have Y7 and Y8 classes to serve the boarding school market, but some prep schools will stop this entirely. Boarding schools are increasingly out of favour and out of the financial reach of British parents.

[MGMidget]

Unfortunately we are too late to consider 10+! And with City of London we are going for the 13+ with pre-test. I did wonder though about how hard Common Entrance was going to be. It seems to be being 'played down' by DS's school but I note comments here suggesting it is going to be very stressful and a slog! If it makes 11+ look like a 'walk in the park' then that would be another reason for us to choose 11+ (assuming DS gets any offers!).

[PeekaPeeka]

My DS are at one of your schools mentioned in the OP.

Our 11+ tutor knows a few of the schools very well, and said that she would never recommend delaying until 13+: there are very few places, and the exams are much tougher than at 10/11+.

I believe that one of the Sutton grammars no longer holds places for 13+ entry, making competition for the indies at 13+ even tougher. I don't know whether the other 2 are planning the same.

DS both went at 10+ (from a state primary) and it was the best decision we ever made.

[jeanne16]

I moved my DS from a London prep on the 11+ to one of the schools in your list. I am so relieved I did. The boys who remained at his prep all had to do the 11+ pretest anyway just to enable them to sit the 13+, so 2 exams. Those that had 13+ offers then had to do the gruelling Common Entrance which is around gcse level work. Why put them through that in y8? The ones that didn’t pass the 11+ pretest spent a horrible 2 years with their sons knowing they had no school offers. They then had take whatever they could get.

My son did A levels last year and got the best results possible and is at a top uni. No one ever discloses their Common Entrance exam results!

[OVienna]

The one from your list I'd be careful about is City. There is as chocolate noted a pre-test at 11 for the 13+ route. You can either go down one path or the other with them. You can't sit the 13 plus if the 11 plus doesn't work out. You can sit their ten plus and then the eleven though.

We are east so not immediately relevant for you. The three main independents in our area used to all do 13 plus. Now only one is really properly offering places then. My daughter's school didn't take anyone, another took one only. The last took about ten. My point is the declining opps at 13 plus are a trend in London I'd be mindful of.

[MGMidget]

Thank you everyone for giving putting so much time into giving me your thoughts. It looks like there is no easy answer because there are pros and cons to leaving at 11 or 13! I current plan is to try for some of the schools that are a bit ambitious and where the chances of getting in are better at 11 than 13. We know there's the fall back of doing entry exams early in year 8 for some of the schools offering a 13+ intake so we do have 'the best of both worlds' in some respects. I was just having a wobble as to whether we should bite the bullet and try for all schools at 11. Some schools don't mind if you try again at 13 if unsuccessful at 11 but of course its hard to know whether they will be influenced by a previous 11+ failure! Does anyone have any experience of trying for both entry points and being successful at 13 but not at 11?

[trinity0097]

I went around Hampton (as a teacher) the other day at an event. The Yr 7s who showed me around said that they were not set by ability, even in subjects that there was a huge discrepancy in what the children had covered before, e.g. Latin. They had both come from state schools with no Latin, but kids from independent schools joining at 11+ would be far more advanced, at our school they start in Yr 4. If your child is capable how would they be stretched not just biding their time until the others caught up.

In many schools the ratios of those applying at 13 are better than at 11, as at 11 you are also up against state school pupils. We’ve never had a problem getting children in to a school at 13+, yes many may not get offers from all schools as it is so competitive in that area, but everyone leaves at 13 to an independent school they are happy with.

[ChocolateWombat]

I would ask the secondaries for very specific data about how many applicants per place there are at both 11+ and 13+.

As has been said, the market is changing. In the past, there were more 13+ places at many of the schools which took in at both 11+ and 13+ and it was true that fewer applied per place at 13 than 11 because only those Preps which went to 13 could send boys (or sometimes girls) at that point. However, if you look you'll see more schools are dropping the 13+ or are reducing the nos they take at 13 and increasing the numbers taken at 11. They want an extra 2 years of fees and certainty of bums on seats. There are a relatively small number which only take at 13+, often boarding schools.

The other thing to be aware of is that for most 13+ entry now, you still sit exams in Yr6 - so a pre-test, which is often the same as 11+. Having to do is removes the chance to 'mature' for slightly lazy or less focused 10 year old boys before the exam. Yes they will be able to stay in their Prep for another 2 years but won't delay the exam sitting phase.

Intake at 13+ as a general trend is dwindling. Ask all your schools how many 13+ entrants they have had in each of the last 3 years and ask if they have both pre-test and Yr8 test and how many are doing each.

There is a definite move towards moving to day seniors at 11+. In my experience at a 13+ Prep those who wait to be tested at Yr8 level are finding there are few schools offering this and most want the 11+ pre test in Yr6 and also that they spend Yr7 and 8 feeling a bit worried about where they will go when they know most people have already gone, and in that 2 year period, each year it becomes clearer that the Seniors are taking less and less in at 13+ and boosting 11+ intake. This might not be the case everywhere, but sounds fairly widespread in London and Home Counties.

In the end, asking lots of very specific questions to the Seniors you are interested in, is key to being able to make an informed decision. I wouldn't rely only on info from the Prep, who cannot give data from the secondaries themselves or speak about the direction of travel they are moving in and where they see 13+ being in another 2 or 3 years.

[AveEldon]

Another thing to consider is the facilities at your prep vs those at the secondary - are more sports / more co curricular clubs / languages available at the secondary? If so why wait 2 years?

[Growingboys]

10+ is a great way to do it. Competition is fierce but they get in at the start rather than arriving late.

[TJsAunt]

it's not that the prep schools are ripping anyone off - it's that their advice will always be about allowing boys to mature at prep school before sitting a 13+ exam.

am always intrigued by this argument. My ds moved to one of these schools at 11+. he was surrounded by similarly immature boys who have now had the benefit of 2 years together before the much smaller 13+ cohort joined them. the benefit to them of knowing the school and the system is massive.

also agree with the 10+ comments - often a smoother and easier time to move for lots of reasons. wish we'd done that.

[natscihelp]

Our experience boiled down to looking at the schools we wanted to apply to and when they had a greater intake - 11 or 13. Although the ratios were better at 13 the vast majority intake was at 11. We thought it better for DS in terms of settling,making friends, sports teams etc. We are glad we did this - plus it was horrendous to see DSs old friends going through the 13 plus exams. With 11 you have time to settle in whereas with 13 you pretty much hit the ground running. I do get the emotional maturity but and it is true boys maturity wise are very different at 13 than at 11 but we still believe this was the best decision for us. We are in a different part of London to you so different schools.