Teen DC sharing a room on a school trip with DC of opposite sex

[TeenTimesTwo]

I am hoping not to be shouted at for this, but this topic is being discussed elsewhere in respect to girl guides and I think it is important for secondary trips. I suspect that some people here don't frequent AIBU or the other relevant boards.

Girl guiding have changed their rules to say that a boy who feels he is a girl can join guides and then go on camping trips sharing tents with other guides without any of the other guides parents being informed their DDs aren't in single sex tents . The boy does not need to have been seen by a doctor or having undergone any formal counselling. He just needs to 'self-id'.

If this can happen in girl guides it could happen in secondary school trips too, couldn't it? I can't say I would be happy if my 13/14/15yo was sharing with a boy, even if he felt confused over his gender/sexuality. You may think this would never happen, but I wouldn't have thought guides would allow it, so who knows.

There is a petition regarding asking the government to consult with women's groups before enshrining this 'self-identification' right into law. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 . Note this isn't about stopping people going through counselling / treatment to help their body fit their sense of who they are. It is about considering the impact on girls (and women) if boys and men can just 'declare' themselves to be the opposite of their biology (and of course vice versa).

If you want to sign please do, if you don't want to, then fine. There are loads of other threads elsewhere for in depth discussion. I just want to ensure that parents of teens in education are aware.

[OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow]

I'm our school's education visit co ordinator and when this situation started getting publicity I asked county what their policy would be if it ever came up. They were totally bemused and said they hadn't thought about it. I got the feeling that they thought I was crazy. I put the question to them again this week, I think they are taking it a lot more seriously now.

[AgnesBadenPowell]

@MrsMcGarry

So AgnesBadenPowell - do you also think that every parent should be informed if one of your guides came out to you as female? Would you have the same concerns about a lesbian guide sharing accomodation with straight female guides?*

No. Lesbian activity does not result in unplanned pregnancy. We already have procedures in place to deal with this.

I'm not advocating anyone outing a child as transgender. I am against GG not telling parents that their female child may be sharing with a male child and therefore preventing them from giving informed consent. I am against a trans child being able to exercise their choice in terms of accommodation but not the other children.

Surely your safeguarding procedures should look at each child and each situation as an individual set of risks? Nobody is suggesting taht you stop doing this - if you have genuine concerns about the behaviour of a trans child you should be allowed to bring that up, just as you would if you had genuine concerns about the behaviour of a cis child. Base your assesment on the risk of them acting like a dick, not on whether they were born with one

I have asked GG for guidance as to how leaders risk assess appropriately - and with sensitivity and discretion - if we have concerns about an individual trans child. They have not answered me. I am still chasing them.

I would also argue that bepenised persons already have their own organisation - Scouts. GG is one of the few all female organisations left. Why should girls keep giving up their space for entitled boys and men?

[TeenTimesTwo]

For me this isn't primarily about sexual activity between teens . As obviously LG teens might be sharing accommodation with people of the sex they feel attracted to.

This is about the rights of the pupils to not have to share accommodation with someone of the opposite sex without consulting them or their parents in advance and getting their consent. As titchy says it is about their dignity and privacy.

The rights of a trans child should not trump the rights of the other children.

[MrsMcGarry]

Lesbians certainly have been knwn to sexually attack women.

I think I'm realising that the transphobia on here is actually based on misandry. I don't actually look at my teenage son and see a potential rapist.

That isn't to say I don't understand the statistics that show that men are far more likely to commit violence against women and that we need to address those issues. I just don't see continued sex segregation as the best answer to male violence.

[titchy]

Weirdly I don't look at my teenage son and see a rapist either FFS.

That doesn't mean that I look at my teenage daughter and automatically think she doesn't need to preserve her safety or dignity.

I doubt any parents look at you and think 'paedo' do they - but you didn't presumably object to the DBS check.

[TeenTimesTwo]

Hi, as starter of this thread please may I respectfully ask that we don't get side-tracked down sexual/violent crime statistics. There are various other threads around elsewhere to discuss wider issues.

I started this thread in secondary education specifically to help people be aware that GG have changed their policies and the implications this may have on secondary school trips if schools follow the lead of the GG.

I realise that some people aren't bothered and don't feel segregation based on sex is needed, but I do suspect that there is a large majority who do expect teens to be separated by sex on school trips and who are currently blissfully unaware that this situation is being threatened.

This is why I raised this thread here.

[AgnesBadenPowell]

@MrsMcGarry there is no transphobia on this thread. I want my unit to be accessible to trans children and girls. Parents WILL take their girls out of GG if we can't guarantee single sex accommodation.

Girls have the right to have their boundaries respected and their voices heard. If they don't want to share accommodation with someone they knew as a boy, is it ethical for me to insist that they do, or they don't come on camp? Is it ethical for me not to tell this parents (without going into specifics about the trans child)?

Is it ethical to tell girls that their girlhood is based on their innate sense of being a girl (as GGHQ told me) and that their biology is not important?

I can't believe anything in the same week that Telford is in the news, we are telling girls yet again that their right to privacy and dignity is not important (because in GG transchildren can chose which accommodation they want to use; this policy isn't extended to anyone else).

Lesbians and women have committed sex offences but at a much much lesser rate than men. And as already stated, the risk of sexual activity I believe is remote - but it stays on my radar because if a 14 year old girl in my care gets pregnant or an STD, what on Earth do I tell her parents?

[clarrylove]

It really does open up a whole host of questions.

My DS goes to an all boys school. Will they now take trans boys?

He was on Scout camp at the weekend - split into girl/boy tents. One of the girls, a self declared 'tomboy' wanted to share with the boys. She was denied. I think that was the sensible choice, but wonder whether that could've been challenged?

[montenotte]

signed,
thanks for bringing it to our attention OP

surely the answer is for male accommodation, female accommodation and "other" in these situations? Anyone choosing "other" has to have specific parental consent. Male/Female is as "assigned at birth" or whatever the phrasing is.

[TeenTimesTwo]

montenotte Well precisely. There needs to be a third option / consultation if the situation arises, not simply removing the option for single-sex accommodation from another group of pupils without informed consent of them and their parents.

(And the consultation should not involve implying that the pupils or parents are transphobic if they prefer to stick with the single sex option. i.e. No pressure should be brought on other pupils to be accommodating to keep the peace).

[KittiesInsane]

At DD's school, the transgender children that we know of are all girls (that is, natal girls). As trans-boys they choose not to use the girls' loos any longer. They also choose not to use the boys' loos, possibly because they would feel unsafe and presumably also because they need the sanitary bins, so they use the staff facilities.

I don't know whether a trans-girl who chose to do so would use the girls' loos, and whether the other children would then have any choice in the matter - so far it hasn't come up.

I also don't know what the school does on residential trips, where accommodation is split into two or three girls to a room, separate floors for girls and for boys. Are any school overnights compulsory? I have a feeling the geography field trips might be.

There was certainly some teenage teeheeing last year that two of the boys were a couple and had got away with sharing a room, but as someone else has said, there's no pregnancy risk involved so the school probably isn't too bothered.

[GCMam]

It's not just girl guides and schools... it's all children/young peoples organisations and their residential trips... cadet forces, youth clubs, D of E.. I remember lads sneaking into dorms at boarding school and cadet camps... imagine what's gonna happen when lads get a sniff that they can do this legitimately!

[TeenTimesTwo]

GCMam I think the worrying about teens saying they are of the opposite gender in order to access opposite sex areas on organised trips or within school probably isn't the best way to look at this.
Purely because of the justifiable argument that declaring you want to be treated as the opposite of your sex is quite a big thing that most teens wouldn't do lightly.

However, even assuming that the teen is doing this because they genuinely feel like a different gender to their sex, I don't think this gives the 'trans' pupil the 'right' to trample on the rights, privacy and dignity of the other pupils.

Kittie You say the trans pupils are choosing to use the staff toilets. Presumably the staff have accepted this, and if so this is a good compromise. My point is that the trans kids should not be able to 'choose' to use the toilets / changing facilities of the opposite sex without 100% agreement of the pupils and their parents.
Furthermore If GG practices are adopted by others, the parents wouldn't even be informed that this could be occurring.

[ArcheryAnnie]

It takes immense bravery to transition. They will face frequent hatred, fear and abuse.

@BringOnTheScience I appreciate that you are coming from a well-intended place on this, but you are a bit behind the times. Amongst many - not all, but many - young people, being trans is a high-status position. (On the other hand, being a girl, and especially being a lesbian, is a low-status position.)

This is not just a young person thing, either. All the major political parties, student unions, wealthy charities, and many private companies put trans rights above women's rights. It's women and girls who argue for sex-segregated services to be protected that get the abuse, hate, death threats, rape threats, physical violence, job security threats, and so on. This is well-documented.

My DCs, who are both in the LGBTQIA+ community, will have the full support of their Mama Bear... as will any other child.

I'm also in the LGBTQIA+ community, and have been for many years (although I wouldn't put it like that, and the "community", such as it is, is currently deeply divided). Nobody here wants to make any child feel uncomfortable, but we have to recognise that girls should have every right to not to have to share intimate space with boys, however those boys identify, and that putting them in situations where they will have no choice about sharing with boys (because they aren't told) will do a great deal more than make them feel uncomfortable, but may well mean that they are unable to take part in public activities at all. These "trans inclusion" policies end up being incredibly exclusionary, and the children who will end up being excluded will mostly be girls. This cannot be fair.

[farangatang]

Kitties - students using staff toilets? That's a safeguarding issue right there. I would be amazed if this was actually allowed! Adults and children should not be sharing toilet facilities in a school situation (I'm not talking parents bringing their toddler in when they are at school, but addressing the risk to teachers of false accusations - the reason we are taught not to be alone with a student in a classroom with a closed door etc...)

Completely off topic, I'm sure, but this adult/student situation being put forward as a viable option shocked me almost as much as the topic of the thread.

[KittiesInsane]

Maybe. What's the better option, though? Student toilets open onto communal sink areas. Staff toilets are single, self-contained cubicles in a quiet but well supervised bit of the main corridor.

It's not off topic at all. These things need to be discussed and a better option found that meets safeguarding concerns all round.

Incidentally, I was in a different college yesterday and noticed that the loos are in sets of three - male, female and 'all-gender' (all self-contained, as far as I could see). Suspect that place had more cash than our very ordinary comprehensive though.

[TalkinPeace]

A friend of mine had a sex change at 18 - full surgery
her views of these "self identify" types like Caitlin Jenner are completely unprintable.

Suffice to say she ALWAYS used the boys facilities until her surgery

[steppemum]

Amongst many - not all, but many - young people, being trans is a high-status position.

this is certainly true at dds school. She goes to an all girls school and her friends are identifying as agender, pangender, etc left right and centre. There is a FtM boy in the sixth form and she is like a celebrity.
The discussions are all about trans accessibility. I have been shocked at how pro men, and therefore anti women some of the comments are. and this is an all girls school.

[steppemum]

sorry, should say HE is a celebrity.

[Voice0fReason]

I think schools would need to be very careful because they need to balance their safeguarding duties to all the children. For a start it would run contrary to NSPCC guidelines to be mixing sexes in sleeping accommodation.
You would like to think that wouldn't you. Unfortunately it isn't true. The NSPCC are supporting the trans position and girls and their parents are not allowed to even know, let alone object.

Even the Boarding School Association have said that boys who intend to change gender should be allowed to sleep in a girls' dormitory, and vice versa.

Women need to have a say in this.

[Voice0fReason]

Amongst many - not all, but many - young people, being trans is a high-status position.
Yes, I've seen a lot of this too. Some kids switching gender regularly. Some of the boys getting loads of attention and help from the girls with hair and make-up.

[donquixotedelamancha]

Teen boys don't decide to pretend to be girls just so that they can share a room/tent.

I've been a teen boy. I've taught teen boys for many years. Teen boys are dicks (yes obviously not all). Some teen boys would do stunts like this. Now of course schools should be able to twig if this is happening, but not all schools are equal.

Still, that's not going to be common- I think the main issue is that a teen boy should not be sharing with a girl whether genuinely dysphoric or not- feminine does not mean 'would never have sex with a girl'. This really needs to be handled carefully if legislation is changed.

It takes immense bravery to transition. They will face frequent hatred, fear and abuse.

Things are loads better than they were. In the last decade kids in schools are (generally) much more accepting of difference than they were.

Personally I don't like the fashion to label all gender non-conforming kids as trans (and that is a thing amongst teens- they imagine they can just take pills and become a boy/girl). I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of hormone treatment below the age of 18.

[Voice0fReason]

Teen boys don't decide to pretend to be girls just so that they can share a room/tent.
I think there are plenty of reasons why some boys might.
Some boys may struggle socially with other boys and feel safer surrounded by girls.
Others may relate better to girls so want to be around them.
Others might just be chancers.
The point is, girls shouldn't have to be put in such a vulnerable position.

[NoSquirrels]

My view is that it is never appropriate to separate children or to treat them differently because of gender and we should limit when we do so by sex.

YY.

Girl Guiding open to all who “identify” as female. Overnight accommodation and changing segregated by sex.

I’m not sure why - logistics aside, which I get will be difficult in many public places currently- a “third space” option is not acceptable or even being campaigned for?

You wouldn’t need to inform any parents of specific Guides who were trans, - you could have the option clearly laid out on a trip consent form that a third space was available, would you be happy for your child to sleep there? For the vast majority of girls, the trans member of the group will be known and accepted already and probably many would choose to sleep in with them - with their parents’ permission. Everyone’s dignity & choices respected.

It’s the lack of choice for natal-born girls (at risk because of their biology, whether they “choose” it or not) that is being taken away.

Scouts is already the “third option”. Trans girls and boys could fit in well there already and would be less stigmatised perhaps by a “third space” tent on overnights.

If you are MtT or support your MtT child to attend GG rather than Scouts, you need to appreciate that the risk of being singled out is probably higher because a lot if parents or girls will have chosen GG precisely for a single-sex environment. Not necessarily a single-gender environment. Because gender is limiting.