Teen DC sharing a room on a school trip with DC of opposite sex

[TeenTimesTwo]

I am hoping not to be shouted at for this, but this topic is being discussed elsewhere in respect to girl guides and I think it is important for secondary trips. I suspect that some people here don't frequent AIBU or the other relevant boards.

Girl guiding have changed their rules to say that a boy who feels he is a girl can join guides and then go on camping trips sharing tents with other guides without any of the other guides parents being informed their DDs aren't in single sex tents . The boy does not need to have been seen by a doctor or having undergone any formal counselling. He just needs to 'self-id'.

If this can happen in girl guides it could happen in secondary school trips too, couldn't it? I can't say I would be happy if my 13/14/15yo was sharing with a boy, even if he felt confused over his gender/sexuality. You may think this would never happen, but I wouldn't have thought guides would allow it, so who knows.

There is a petition regarding asking the government to consult with women's groups before enshrining this 'self-identification' right into law. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 . Note this isn't about stopping people going through counselling / treatment to help their body fit their sense of who they are. It is about considering the impact on girls (and women) if boys and men can just 'declare' themselves to be the opposite of their biology (and of course vice versa).

If you want to sign please do, if you don't want to, then fine. There are loads of other threads elsewhere for in depth discussion. I just want to ensure that parents of teens in education are aware.

[GlueSticks]

I can’t imagine any Muslim parents ever allowing their daughters to go on school trips or join GG ever again.

I can't imagine many teachers agreeing to organise and take responsibility for school trips either. I certainly wouldn't want the fallout if someone got pregnant on a school trip after sharing with a member of the opposite sex.

Parents really do have some rights regarding their own DC, and the right to know if their child is sharing with someone of the opposite sex is quite high on a lot of parent's priorities.

[NoSquirrels]

Well done @Hippos

I want all the organisations like schools and GG and sports teams and community groups to be inclusive - I spend my time preaching tolerance to my DC whenever possible. But we need to be clear on all the unintended consequences of changes to law and practice. Being ‘intersectional’ is not much help if by doing so you exclude ‘sections’ accidentally by putting them lower in some notional hierarchy of equality.

[HipposGoBerserk]

Received email link and signed.

[NoSquirrels]

But if there are now 70+ genders that will mean an awful lot of separate toilets and separate rooms ...

Nope - third space. Male, female, unisex/unigender.

[Babdoc]

If this policy of forcing teenage girls to accept biological boys in their sleeping accommodation goes ahead, I can’t imagine any Muslim parents ever allowing their daughters to go on school trips or join GG ever again. So as well as trampling over women’s rights to their own space and privacy, you will be excluding an entire religious community. Ditto for women only swimming sessions.
Why do trans rights count for more than everyone else’s?

[HipposGoBerserk]

Yes I've checked my spam folder, sorry I should have said.

[snewsname]

I'm with you op. I wouldn't necessarily mind, but I would like to be given the choice to mind.

[TeenTimesTwo]

Have you checked your spam folder?

[HipposGoBerserk]

Thanks for flagging this up Teen.

I've tried to sign up three times now. I've yet to receive a clicky link email to finalise things. I'm frustrated as this is an important issue I'd like discussed in parliament. I've checked my email address. Anyone else had problems?

[TeenTimesTwo]

But if there are now 70+ genders that will mean an awful lot of separate toilets and separate rooms ...

[NoSquirrels]

Not necessarily a single-gender environment. Because gender is limiting.

Sorry - this doesn’t quite make sense for the context, ignore! Was late last night

What I meant was some people will choose it as a single sex environment due to their own concerns (religious, cultural, social etc) and some because it’s single gender and we shouldn’t be excluding or prioritising either of those viewpoints.

[TalkinPeace]

Single sex sharing on school trips worked out fine for a gay couple DD knows

But as I say, the "self identifying" is the latest form of rebellion against parents
(Now that we are no longer shocked by long hair / race / drugs / gay)

But this one creates much too much of an imposition against girls who are still struggling to say #metoo

[NoSquirrels]

My view is that it is never appropriate to separate children or to treat them differently because of gender and we should limit when we do so by sex.

YY.

Girl Guiding open to all who “identify” as female. Overnight accommodation and changing segregated by sex.

I’m not sure why - logistics aside, which I get will be difficult in many public places currently- a “third space” option is not acceptable or even being campaigned for?

You wouldn’t need to inform any parents of specific Guides who were trans, - you could have the option clearly laid out on a trip consent form that a third space was available, would you be happy for your child to sleep there? For the vast majority of girls, the trans member of the group will be known and accepted already and probably many would choose to sleep in with them - with their parents’ permission. Everyone’s dignity & choices respected.

It’s the lack of choice for natal-born girls (at risk because of their biology, whether they “choose” it or not) that is being taken away.

Scouts is already the “third option”. Trans girls and boys could fit in well there already and would be less stigmatised perhaps by a “third space” tent on overnights.

If you are MtT or support your MtT child to attend GG rather than Scouts, you need to appreciate that the risk of being singled out is probably higher because a lot if parents or girls will have chosen GG precisely for a single-sex environment. Not necessarily a single-gender environment. Because gender is limiting.

[Voice0fReason]

Teen boys don't decide to pretend to be girls just so that they can share a room/tent.
I think there are plenty of reasons why some boys might.
Some boys may struggle socially with other boys and feel safer surrounded by girls.
Others may relate better to girls so want to be around them.
Others might just be chancers.
The point is, girls shouldn't have to be put in such a vulnerable position.

[donquixotedelamancha]

Teen boys don't decide to pretend to be girls just so that they can share a room/tent.

I've been a teen boy. I've taught teen boys for many years. Teen boys are dicks (yes obviously not all). Some teen boys would do stunts like this. Now of course schools should be able to twig if this is happening, but not all schools are equal.

Still, that's not going to be common- I think the main issue is that a teen boy should not be sharing with a girl whether genuinely dysphoric or not- feminine does not mean 'would never have sex with a girl'. This really needs to be handled carefully if legislation is changed.

It takes immense bravery to transition. They will face frequent hatred, fear and abuse.

Things are loads better than they were. In the last decade kids in schools are (generally) much more accepting of difference than they were.

Personally I don't like the fashion to label all gender non-conforming kids as trans (and that is a thing amongst teens- they imagine they can just take pills and become a boy/girl). I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of hormone treatment below the age of 18.

[Voice0fReason]

Amongst many - not all, but many - young people, being trans is a high-status position.
Yes, I've seen a lot of this too. Some kids switching gender regularly. Some of the boys getting loads of attention and help from the girls with hair and make-up.

[Voice0fReason]

I think schools would need to be very careful because they need to balance their safeguarding duties to all the children. For a start it would run contrary to NSPCC guidelines to be mixing sexes in sleeping accommodation.
You would like to think that wouldn't you. Unfortunately it isn't true. The NSPCC are supporting the trans position and girls and their parents are not allowed to even know, let alone object.

Even the Boarding School Association have said that boys who intend to change gender should be allowed to sleep in a girls' dormitory, and vice versa.

Women need to have a say in this.

[steppemum]

sorry, should say HE is a celebrity.

[steppemum]

Amongst many - not all, but many - young people, being trans is a high-status position.

this is certainly true at dds school. She goes to an all girls school and her friends are identifying as agender, pangender, etc left right and centre. There is a FtM boy in the sixth form and she is like a celebrity.
The discussions are all about trans accessibility. I have been shocked at how pro men, and therefore anti women some of the comments are. and this is an all girls school.

[TalkinPeace]

A friend of mine had a sex change at 18 - full surgery
her views of these "self identify" types like Caitlin Jenner are completely unprintable.

Suffice to say she ALWAYS used the boys facilities until her surgery

[KittiesInsane]

Maybe. What's the better option, though? Student toilets open onto communal sink areas. Staff toilets are single, self-contained cubicles in a quiet but well supervised bit of the main corridor.

It's not off topic at all. These things need to be discussed and a better option found that meets safeguarding concerns all round.

Incidentally, I was in a different college yesterday and noticed that the loos are in sets of three - male, female and 'all-gender' (all self-contained, as far as I could see). Suspect that place had more cash than our very ordinary comprehensive though.

[farangatang]

Kitties - students using staff toilets? That's a safeguarding issue right there. I would be amazed if this was actually allowed! Adults and children should not be sharing toilet facilities in a school situation (I'm not talking parents bringing their toddler in when they are at school, but addressing the risk to teachers of false accusations - the reason we are taught not to be alone with a student in a classroom with a closed door etc...)

Completely off topic, I'm sure, but this adult/student situation being put forward as a viable option shocked me almost as much as the topic of the thread.

[ArcheryAnnie]

It takes immense bravery to transition. They will face frequent hatred, fear and abuse.

@BringOnTheScience I appreciate that you are coming from a well-intended place on this, but you are a bit behind the times. Amongst many - not all, but many - young people, being trans is a high-status position. (On the other hand, being a girl, and especially being a lesbian, is a low-status position.)

This is not just a young person thing, either. All the major political parties, student unions, wealthy charities, and many private companies put trans rights above women's rights. It's women and girls who argue for sex-segregated services to be protected that get the abuse, hate, death threats, rape threats, physical violence, job security threats, and so on. This is well-documented.

My DCs, who are both in the LGBTQIA+ community, will have the full support of their Mama Bear... as will any other child.

I'm also in the LGBTQIA+ community, and have been for many years (although I wouldn't put it like that, and the "community", such as it is, is currently deeply divided). Nobody here wants to make any child feel uncomfortable, but we have to recognise that girls should have every right to not to have to share intimate space with boys, however those boys identify, and that putting them in situations where they will have no choice about sharing with boys (because they aren't told) will do a great deal more than make them feel uncomfortable, but may well mean that they are unable to take part in public activities at all. These "trans inclusion" policies end up being incredibly exclusionary, and the children who will end up being excluded will mostly be girls. This cannot be fair.

[TeenTimesTwo]

GCMam I think the worrying about teens saying they are of the opposite gender in order to access opposite sex areas on organised trips or within school probably isn't the best way to look at this.
Purely because of the justifiable argument that declaring you want to be treated as the opposite of your sex is quite a big thing that most teens wouldn't do lightly.

However, even assuming that the teen is doing this because they genuinely feel like a different gender to their sex, I don't think this gives the 'trans' pupil the 'right' to trample on the rights, privacy and dignity of the other pupils.

Kittie You say the trans pupils are choosing to use the staff toilets. Presumably the staff have accepted this, and if so this is a good compromise. My point is that the trans kids should not be able to 'choose' to use the toilets / changing facilities of the opposite sex without 100% agreement of the pupils and their parents.
Furthermore If GG practices are adopted by others, the parents wouldn't even be informed that this could be occurring.

[GCMam]

It's not just girl guides and schools... it's all children/young peoples organisations and their residential trips... cadet forces, youth clubs, D of E.. I remember lads sneaking into dorms at boarding school and cadet camps... imagine what's gonna happen when lads get a sniff that they can do this legitimately!