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Secondary education

Kingston Grammar vs Tiffin boys

57 replies

KindergartenKop · 10/02/2018 16:55

Are the two 11+ exams equally difficult? Do people who pass both tend to go to Tiffin because it's free? So is KGS technically easier to get into if you're willing to pay? How bright, roughly, do you need to be to get into these schools? Thanks Smile

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ReelingLush18 · 14/02/2018 08:57

I might argue that families who have the money to fall back on KGS might not subject their DC to the same 11+ prep regime as those intent on getting places at Tiffin for their children. They don't need to because they know they can afford an acceptable alternative!

One of DD's classmates got places at Nonsuch and Tiffin Girls - her mother had been tutoring her since Year 1! And no doubt will continue to do so.

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Heliophilous · 14/02/2018 16:43

Tutoring is not necessarily something you have to do. DD just got an SPGS offer and I don't think it unlikely that she will get into Tiffin Girls too. She had less than 6 months of tutoring (mainly focused on exam technique). We have done no other preparation.

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ReelingLush18 · 14/02/2018 17:02

Heliophilous but many would argue that is tutoring, albeit not long-term. DS did about the same (with us at home) and passed for all three grammars he sat the 11+ for (this was in the days before joint exams).

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Heliophilous · 14/02/2018 23:37

My point is that it was less than six months and cost well under £800. People talk about tutoring for years and years. It really isn't necessary.

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mari652 · 20/02/2018 17:52

This 'everyone who gets in is massively tutored from Infants ' is a bit of an exaggeration and pushed by those making money out of the tutoring . My daughter went to Tiffin Girls, not tutored apart from some practice papers to get used to the format. From a neighbouring borough state primary that didn't have practice sessions in school, unlike the Kingston schools. Her form had a bit of a 'who got tutored ?' chat amongst themselves in about Yr 8 and it was the girls who were heavily tutored to get in who were doing less well - some even still had tutoring on top of their homework load to keep up.

The classes are not small but it works because they are pretty much at the same level and can go at the same speed. It's not kind to force them up to entrance level if they aren't naturally super able academically and I mean consistently top of the class at primary. It shouldn't just be seen as a free alternative to independent - it's not the same. There aren't the frills but there is academic challenge in the company of others who are of a similar type. My other child was bright but not Tiffin speed and we were quietly relieved when she didn't make the cut - did very well indeed at one of our local comprehensives.

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Strix · 02/03/2018 13:09

There are some myths on this thread about Tiffin School. I would like to share some actual facts.

Tiffin puts VR in the English section and NVR in the maths section now.

Not everyone is tutored. Many are. But certainly not from Infants.

Tiffin is well known to be considerably harder to get into than any of the private schools for Miles and Miles (including Hampton and KGS). Tiffin doesn't interview. Offers are based on test scores alone. However, I have heard of kids who got into Tiffin and not KGS. Probably because they test better
than they interview.

There is one downside to Tiffin: that butt ugly blazer. Hopefully, it is character building.

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ChocolateWombat · 02/03/2018 14:30

It may well be true that people who have independent schools as an option, prepare less rigorously for the exams than their counterparts who have the option of a state grammar or a disappointing state Comp. clearly the incentive to prepare is stronger.

I would suggest that the numbers who get into Tiffin who are not bright, but heavily tutored will be few these days. Tutoring can take you so far....but not all the way, when competition is so fierce. Simple, innate ability will take a number all the way,nwithout any tutoring or preparation, but most who get in will be both very clever and also prepared - not necessarily from infants, but perhaps with a good year of focused prep from a parent or tutor.

Those Independnet schools are nowhere near as difficult to get into. It's a numbers game and quite simply when 1800 apply with a 10:1 ratio, you will get better candidates than when the ratio is much lower and many have been excluded because they never could pay anyway.

I think that those who really want their children educated with the extremely clever, pick Tiffin. The local independents are very good and deliver great and often similar results to Tiffin from a wider range of ability.

People who can pay do have more choices. It gives them the choice to prepare to a lesser extent because the completion is much less fierce. It gives them the choice to choose a school which is less competitive to get into and to say that the state grammar was never their first choice anyway, just a practice run, and it gives them the choice to enjoy the perhaps less intense experience and benefits of better funding too.

In the end, lots will have offers from KGS and the other independents who get turned down by Tiffin. There won't be many who are the other way round. This shows it is harder to get into Tiffin. Of course, many don't apply to both.

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AmazingDisgrace · 02/03/2018 16:46

Mari652 : Primary schools in Kingston do not do practice sessions for Tiffin.

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testbunny · 02/03/2018 17:18

From my DC's outstanding state primary, only one child seriously went for TGS (her father is an academic so tutored her), and two took the test as autumn practice for the January independent 11+ exams. However, around half the year applied to independent schools.

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testbunny · 02/03/2018 17:23

Meant to say, independents including KGS, girls and boys

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MotherLocalLand · 19/03/2018 15:12

Just posting this for anyone considering Tiffin Boys; you certainly can get in without loads of tutoring!

We tried Tutoring about a year before the exam but my son hated it. He was bright but not the best in his state primary. Much stronger in Maths than English.

We gave up tutoring completely after few weeks, especially as tutor said he just didn't listen anyway.

Because of that, when the test came round months about 10 months later I thought there was no point taking it. However I asked him the day before, if he wanted to have a go, just in case. Tiny to zero chance of passing I thought.

He did pass 1st stage and then 2nd! So surprised. Even a friend who I thought was brighter than him and was tutored the full year didn't get in. My point is you can't tell.

So glad we just did take him that day (even though we thought it was a waste of time).
Hope that info may help someone.

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Tid13 · 20/03/2018 12:13

It may be the case that Tiffin is harder to get into due to the fact that fewer will sit the exams for KGS (or Hampton for that matter, though about 650 boys sit the Hampton entrance exam for 125 places so still a 5:1 ratio of boys to places). It is certainly also true that many will sit the Tiffin exam with no intention whatsoever of attending, and many will sit in hope rather than expectation, after all what do you have to lose considering it is free? Whichever way you look at it, all these tests are difficult, and any child will have done well to pass them. Which is "more difficult" might just depend on what your child finds easier and how that matches to a particular test, and also just whether they have a good or a bad day.

As for where those children eventually attend and how this can be read as an indicator for which is harder/better, well one poster suggested that as most of a Tiffin class had passed Wilsons and Sutton Grammar but attended Tiffin instead we should "do the maths" and work that out. The problem with this maths is that it doesn't factor in that Wilsons is over 8 miles as the crow flies away from Tiffin, and factoring in morning traffic there is a very small band of children that live in an area that would be able to attend Wilsons that end up at Tiffin. Most of those in that Tiffin class would live too far away to ever think of going to Wilsons. I live almost equidistant between the two, and although our son passed to allow us to put Wilsons on the CAF we didn't consider it because it was just too much of a pain to get to. Given an equal choice not based on travel we'd have chosen Wilsons over Tiffin due to the onsite playing fields and the better academic record. Certainly many I know have rejected Tiffin for other schools for many reasons, just as many have rejected KGS/SGS/Hampton for Tiffin.

What I would think about is that no matter how hard the exam is, getting into the school is not your end point, either academically or in development of a rounded person. Whilst the latter is difficult to measure, public exam results do allow us to measure the former. All schools mentioned perform very well, but it intrigues me that if Tiffin exam is much harder and they take in the academic "cream" at 11+, what are KGS, Hampton and indeed Wilsons doing so much better that they all outperform Tiffin at GCSE results? (%age entries achieving A/A) According to The Times Parent Power table 2017 results, Tiffin achieved 78.5% GCSEs at A/A, KGS 87.3%, Wilsons 86.1% and Hampton 93.4% If you factor in A-levels (where Tiffin does a little better than KGS) the two schools are almost inseparable on academic record.

So to return to the salient point, yes you have to be pretty bright, but you never know until you try, and what do you have to lose? Nothing ventured nothing gained as they say, and whilst it seems that Tiffin may be more difficult to get into than KGS, academically your child is likely to achieve as well at either establishment. Given that, it is probably best not to choose KGS because "you get what you pay for" or Tiffin because "it is harder to get into therefore more exclusive and better". Enter both, see how your son gets on, and if you are lucky enough to have to make a choice then it is likely to be on other factors than how hard the exam was! Good luck!

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ChocolateWombat · 21/03/2018 17:02

Good post!
You're right that they are both great schools and becaue they are full of bright children, they get very good results. You really can't go wrong with any of them - how fortunate to have an offer from one and how fortunate to have more than one - but every child can only attend one great school.
Practical issues have to make a difference - ability to pay fees, being the big one for most people, plus distance simply ruling out a lot of choices for many too. Some parents get very hung up on which is hardest to get into and like the kudos (imagined?) that comes from saying their child got an offer and don't like to admit to any rejection and often look for ways to explain that away, in terms of it wasn't a serious application or something else.
Sometimes it's the private vs state divide. It's hard for parents paying mega fees to consider or accept that a free alternative might deliver as good or better results or be harder to get into, than the option they are paying lots for. They might then focus more heavily on the other benefits private schools have regarding facilities and funding. People paying fees like to feel their cash is buying them something not available for free. And those parents who have got the state place often struggle to understand why anyone would choose fee paying schools when the results of their very top state grammar are as good or close to being as good - they often overlook the other aspects of education and point to all the extra curriculars undoubtedly offered at good state grammars, but perhaps not on the same level. Everyone has a vested interest in stating that what they have is best and prioritising the good features of the option they have chosen or has chosen them. It's human nature to veer towards liking the option we find ourselves with and when things are very competitive, to perhaps diss the alternatives. It's what people seem to do when faced with great state grammars and great independents.

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FlumePlume · 21/03/2018 21:32

A bit OT, but did anyone get caught out by the exploding offers at KGS this year? Their prospectus says:
“The School makes more offers than there are places available and in the event of oversubscription, valid acceptances will be prioritised based on the time of receipt. Prioritisation takes place after the deadline for acceptance has passed.”

But I haven’t seen a thread about it (whereas there has been one for CLSG).

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Lupiform · 21/03/2018 22:06

It seems like more and more schools are opting for exploding offers. While I am sure they are perfectly OK schools, I'm really not impressed with this! It seems very harsh on the children. We did not apply for either (we're in the admissions round this year) but I would certainly be inclined to prioritise a school not using this policy in future.

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thesunalwaysshines · 21/03/2018 22:21

The school said they did it to avoid over offering - they had been caught out the year before, apparently. I don't think it was anywhere near the same level as CLSG, which apparently had filled their places in a matter of hours! However, I assume there would have been a flurry of activity the day the state school allocations were announced. So some parents with KGS offers holding out for places at Tiffin may have been caught out. I guess we'll find out soon enough! We accepted KGS straight way as it was out first choice (we didn't enter DC for the Tiffin exams)

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helloallllll · 21/03/2018 22:28

We went to the KGS offer holders meeting on the 1st March and the head said basically they had been caught out the year before and they put the over offer clause in as a last resort as they don't have room for a bulge class. He said they had made far fewer offers this year and their acceptance level had been fine and they wouldn't need to use the 'exploding offer' clause. I got the feeling the lawyers made them do it and they weren't very happy about it but in the end it wasn't needed.

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Sunshine5050 · 21/03/2018 22:31

Re KGS I heard that at the open day for offers in early March the Head said all the offers stood and they weren't "exploding offers" although this is not what the offer letter received on 9th Feb had said (I received 1 but had rejected offer by 1st March). I haven't heard of anyone being offered and not getting a place and I wonder if they went to waiting list this year.

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Sunshine5050 · 21/03/2018 22:32

Sorry helloall, our posts crossed, yes I heard exactly what you heard from the head!

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helloallllll · 21/03/2018 22:36

We didn't reject the offer until the very last day and it was still
Ok then! I don't know anyone who was on the waitlist so not sure how it worked out- all seems like a long time ago now!

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Notenoughsleepmumof3 · 27/03/2018 13:08

Tiffin parent here. My DS wasn't heavily tutored. I did bits with him. He was always bright and at the top of his state primary school in all his classes. He was bored at primary school. He reads a lot and he likes math. I started doing 10 minute bond books with him in year 5 and then we did about 5 timed practice tests during the summer leading up to the first exam. I honestly didn't think he would have a chance and we were relaxed about it. I told him it didn't matter, just try and enjoy the process. There are kids who were and still are tutored in his form, but he's really enjoying the school and he's doing well. He's a little bit lazy there. I think he could put a bit more effort into his studies, but we will see.

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ch16 · 28/03/2018 19:49

Tiffin school going co-ed for 6th form in 2019.

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Notenoughsleepmumof3 · 28/03/2018 20:57

My son will be so pleased

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stillfeel18inside · 29/03/2018 15:37

Tiffin is much harder to get into than the independent schools. My son got into KGS with a general interview and was about half way down the Tiffin list! Even though the numbers sound daunting at places like KGS (eg 600 children for 120 places) each of those kids will have applied for about 4 schools so they offer far more than 120 places whereas with Tiffin they’ll have a far higher acceptance rate.

I’d highly recommend KGS, it’s a great all round school.

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montenotte · 29/03/2018 16:13

wow interesting about Tiffin going co-ed for sixth form.
Does that mean both Tiffin boys & girls will accept external boys & girls, or will there just be one Tiffin sixth form?

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