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Secondary education

Kingston Grammar vs Tiffin boys

57 replies

KindergartenKop · 10/02/2018 16:55

Are the two 11+ exams equally difficult? Do people who pass both tend to go to Tiffin because it's free? So is KGS technically easier to get into if you're willing to pay? How bright, roughly, do you need to be to get into these schools? Thanks Smile

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Babyqueen · 19/01/2019 05:52

Hello can anyone recommend a tutor for Kingston Grammar School for their 11plus / 13plus maths, english and verbal reasoning? A tutor who has had success in getting kids in tomthe school? thanks in advance, please message me if you can recommend anyone

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ch16 · 08/04/2018 09:42

BB17 try Manchester Grammar School online mocks-a bit quirky and good alternative test.

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BakerBoys77 · 07/04/2018 11:00

Great thread, very informative to read! We’re going for the Tiffins 11+ this year, also St Paul’s as an aspirational ‘Wild card’! But my son is an extremely talented musician, so we’re hoping it will help him with StP! Quick question - does anyone know where we can find exam papers that are close to the Tiffins exam? We’d like to practice a few and see how he does. He’s going to start with a tutor to help him with StP’s soon, so we’ve got that covered! Any tips on Tiffin prep gratefully received ;)

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Notenoughsleepmumof3 · 30/03/2018 15:20

Reelinglush. Regarding kids being tutored to get it yes. Regarding kids still being tutored yes. Still a huge cohort of kids who weren't or aren't. Equally. There's one boy in my sons form who is still tutored but he has already passed his Gcse maths. His parents really push him. My DS is just a normal bright kids. He would have been fine at his sisters comp, but the pastoral care at Tiffin is what I wanted for him.

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ReelingLush18 · 30/03/2018 07:58

Slightly off topic but in response to the comment There are kids who were and still are tutored in his form thanks for confirming what I have been saying all along about pupils at super-selectives (but some MNetters refuse to believe it to be true).

Tiffin is much harder to get into than the independent schools. Some for sure. I argued (possibly earlier on on this thread) that I know children who did 11+ exams (but failed) but got into KGS.

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thesunalwaysshines · 29/03/2018 16:31

Apparently it was 900 this year, but maybe including 13+?

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nocampinghere · 29/03/2018 16:14

KGS is more like 800 for 100 places btw (20 are pre-allocated at 10+)

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montenotte · 29/03/2018 16:13

wow interesting about Tiffin going co-ed for sixth form.
Does that mean both Tiffin boys & girls will accept external boys & girls, or will there just be one Tiffin sixth form?

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stillfeel18inside · 29/03/2018 15:37

Tiffin is much harder to get into than the independent schools. My son got into KGS with a general interview and was about half way down the Tiffin list! Even though the numbers sound daunting at places like KGS (eg 600 children for 120 places) each of those kids will have applied for about 4 schools so they offer far more than 120 places whereas with Tiffin they’ll have a far higher acceptance rate.

I’d highly recommend KGS, it’s a great all round school.

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Notenoughsleepmumof3 · 28/03/2018 20:57

My son will be so pleased

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ch16 · 28/03/2018 19:49

Tiffin school going co-ed for 6th form in 2019.

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Notenoughsleepmumof3 · 27/03/2018 13:08

Tiffin parent here. My DS wasn't heavily tutored. I did bits with him. He was always bright and at the top of his state primary school in all his classes. He was bored at primary school. He reads a lot and he likes math. I started doing 10 minute bond books with him in year 5 and then we did about 5 timed practice tests during the summer leading up to the first exam. I honestly didn't think he would have a chance and we were relaxed about it. I told him it didn't matter, just try and enjoy the process. There are kids who were and still are tutored in his form, but he's really enjoying the school and he's doing well. He's a little bit lazy there. I think he could put a bit more effort into his studies, but we will see.

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helloallllll · 21/03/2018 22:36

We didn't reject the offer until the very last day and it was still
Ok then! I don't know anyone who was on the waitlist so not sure how it worked out- all seems like a long time ago now!

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Sunshine5050 · 21/03/2018 22:32

Sorry helloall, our posts crossed, yes I heard exactly what you heard from the head!

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Sunshine5050 · 21/03/2018 22:31

Re KGS I heard that at the open day for offers in early March the Head said all the offers stood and they weren't "exploding offers" although this is not what the offer letter received on 9th Feb had said (I received 1 but had rejected offer by 1st March). I haven't heard of anyone being offered and not getting a place and I wonder if they went to waiting list this year.

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helloallllll · 21/03/2018 22:28

We went to the KGS offer holders meeting on the 1st March and the head said basically they had been caught out the year before and they put the over offer clause in as a last resort as they don't have room for a bulge class. He said they had made far fewer offers this year and their acceptance level had been fine and they wouldn't need to use the 'exploding offer' clause. I got the feeling the lawyers made them do it and they weren't very happy about it but in the end it wasn't needed.

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thesunalwaysshines · 21/03/2018 22:21

The school said they did it to avoid over offering - they had been caught out the year before, apparently. I don't think it was anywhere near the same level as CLSG, which apparently had filled their places in a matter of hours! However, I assume there would have been a flurry of activity the day the state school allocations were announced. So some parents with KGS offers holding out for places at Tiffin may have been caught out. I guess we'll find out soon enough! We accepted KGS straight way as it was out first choice (we didn't enter DC for the Tiffin exams)

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Lupiform · 21/03/2018 22:06

It seems like more and more schools are opting for exploding offers. While I am sure they are perfectly OK schools, I'm really not impressed with this! It seems very harsh on the children. We did not apply for either (we're in the admissions round this year) but I would certainly be inclined to prioritise a school not using this policy in future.

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FlumePlume · 21/03/2018 21:32

A bit OT, but did anyone get caught out by the exploding offers at KGS this year? Their prospectus says:
“The School makes more offers than there are places available and in the event of oversubscription, valid acceptances will be prioritised based on the time of receipt. Prioritisation takes place after the deadline for acceptance has passed.”

But I haven’t seen a thread about it (whereas there has been one for CLSG).

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ChocolateWombat · 21/03/2018 17:02

Good post!
You're right that they are both great schools and becaue they are full of bright children, they get very good results. You really can't go wrong with any of them - how fortunate to have an offer from one and how fortunate to have more than one - but every child can only attend one great school.
Practical issues have to make a difference - ability to pay fees, being the big one for most people, plus distance simply ruling out a lot of choices for many too. Some parents get very hung up on which is hardest to get into and like the kudos (imagined?) that comes from saying their child got an offer and don't like to admit to any rejection and often look for ways to explain that away, in terms of it wasn't a serious application or something else.
Sometimes it's the private vs state divide. It's hard for parents paying mega fees to consider or accept that a free alternative might deliver as good or better results or be harder to get into, than the option they are paying lots for. They might then focus more heavily on the other benefits private schools have regarding facilities and funding. People paying fees like to feel their cash is buying them something not available for free. And those parents who have got the state place often struggle to understand why anyone would choose fee paying schools when the results of their very top state grammar are as good or close to being as good - they often overlook the other aspects of education and point to all the extra curriculars undoubtedly offered at good state grammars, but perhaps not on the same level. Everyone has a vested interest in stating that what they have is best and prioritising the good features of the option they have chosen or has chosen them. It's human nature to veer towards liking the option we find ourselves with and when things are very competitive, to perhaps diss the alternatives. It's what people seem to do when faced with great state grammars and great independents.

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Tid13 · 20/03/2018 12:13

It may be the case that Tiffin is harder to get into due to the fact that fewer will sit the exams for KGS (or Hampton for that matter, though about 650 boys sit the Hampton entrance exam for 125 places so still a 5:1 ratio of boys to places). It is certainly also true that many will sit the Tiffin exam with no intention whatsoever of attending, and many will sit in hope rather than expectation, after all what do you have to lose considering it is free? Whichever way you look at it, all these tests are difficult, and any child will have done well to pass them. Which is "more difficult" might just depend on what your child finds easier and how that matches to a particular test, and also just whether they have a good or a bad day.

As for where those children eventually attend and how this can be read as an indicator for which is harder/better, well one poster suggested that as most of a Tiffin class had passed Wilsons and Sutton Grammar but attended Tiffin instead we should "do the maths" and work that out. The problem with this maths is that it doesn't factor in that Wilsons is over 8 miles as the crow flies away from Tiffin, and factoring in morning traffic there is a very small band of children that live in an area that would be able to attend Wilsons that end up at Tiffin. Most of those in that Tiffin class would live too far away to ever think of going to Wilsons. I live almost equidistant between the two, and although our son passed to allow us to put Wilsons on the CAF we didn't consider it because it was just too much of a pain to get to. Given an equal choice not based on travel we'd have chosen Wilsons over Tiffin due to the onsite playing fields and the better academic record. Certainly many I know have rejected Tiffin for other schools for many reasons, just as many have rejected KGS/SGS/Hampton for Tiffin.

What I would think about is that no matter how hard the exam is, getting into the school is not your end point, either academically or in development of a rounded person. Whilst the latter is difficult to measure, public exam results do allow us to measure the former. All schools mentioned perform very well, but it intrigues me that if Tiffin exam is much harder and they take in the academic "cream" at 11+, what are KGS, Hampton and indeed Wilsons doing so much better that they all outperform Tiffin at GCSE results? (%age entries achieving A/A) According to The Times Parent Power table 2017 results, Tiffin achieved 78.5% GCSEs at A/A, KGS 87.3%, Wilsons 86.1% and Hampton 93.4% If you factor in A-levels (where Tiffin does a little better than KGS) the two schools are almost inseparable on academic record.

So to return to the salient point, yes you have to be pretty bright, but you never know until you try, and what do you have to lose? Nothing ventured nothing gained as they say, and whilst it seems that Tiffin may be more difficult to get into than KGS, academically your child is likely to achieve as well at either establishment. Given that, it is probably best not to choose KGS because "you get what you pay for" or Tiffin because "it is harder to get into therefore more exclusive and better". Enter both, see how your son gets on, and if you are lucky enough to have to make a choice then it is likely to be on other factors than how hard the exam was! Good luck!

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MotherLocalLand · 19/03/2018 15:12

Just posting this for anyone considering Tiffin Boys; you certainly can get in without loads of tutoring!

We tried Tutoring about a year before the exam but my son hated it. He was bright but not the best in his state primary. Much stronger in Maths than English.

We gave up tutoring completely after few weeks, especially as tutor said he just didn't listen anyway.

Because of that, when the test came round months about 10 months later I thought there was no point taking it. However I asked him the day before, if he wanted to have a go, just in case. Tiny to zero chance of passing I thought.

He did pass 1st stage and then 2nd! So surprised. Even a friend who I thought was brighter than him and was tutored the full year didn't get in. My point is you can't tell.

So glad we just did take him that day (even though we thought it was a waste of time).
Hope that info may help someone.

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testbunny · 02/03/2018 17:23

Meant to say, independents including KGS, girls and boys

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testbunny · 02/03/2018 17:18

From my DC's outstanding state primary, only one child seriously went for TGS (her father is an academic so tutored her), and two took the test as autumn practice for the January independent 11+ exams. However, around half the year applied to independent schools.

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AmazingDisgrace · 02/03/2018 16:46

Mari652 : Primary schools in Kingston do not do practice sessions for Tiffin.

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