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Should people who attend Nazi conferences get government funding?

174 replies

noblegiraffe · 10/01/2018 23:57

Ok, provocative title, but it's hard to distil this situation into a few words. Yes it's about Toby Young.

News has come out about a secret conference held for the last few years at UCL. Invite-only, secret and small, it has apparently been attended by a neo-nazi and a paedophilia supporter. The conference is apparently about the inheritability of intelligence but has also looked at race and intelligence and eugenics.
The Telegraph details the conference here: www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/01/10/ucl-launches-eugenics-probe-emerges-academic-held-controversial/

It appears that Toby Young was one of the invitees to this secret invite-only conference. Aside from writing misogynistic tweets, he has also written an article supporting 'progressive eugenics'. The Guardian talks about Toby Young's involvement here:

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/jan/10/ucl-to-investigate-secret-eugenics-conference-held-on-campus

Given that the attendees were aware of the unacceptable nature of their discussions so held them in secret and that the fact that the conferences are now banned and are being investigated, it's clear that something pretty unsavoury has been going on.

Toby Young has resigned from his position on the board of the Office for Students, and it appears his resignation may be linked to these revelations. Toby Young also pulls in a fat salary as Director of the New Schools Network. The New Schools Network is a charity, but it receives the majority of its funding from the DfE. Surely his position there is also untenable?

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MumTryingHerBest · 11/01/2018 17:33

Toby likes to think his offer of BBB was a result of his amazing interview

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toby_Young

He had been given a conditional offer of three Bs plus an O-level pass in a foreign language under a scheme to give access to comprehensive pupils

However:

www.nosacredcows.co.uk/

it would have been odd for me to write something disparaging grammar school boys at Oxford since that’s what I was myself.

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noblegiraffe · 11/01/2018 17:47

Clavinova According to Toby Young himself he was at the 2017 conference. The Private Eye article says that Emil Kirkegaard, the nazi-sympathiser who advocates drugging children with sleeping medication so that paedophiles can have sex with them (what they don't know won't hurt them), presented a paper at the 2017 conference.

Not sure who else was there but tbh that's grim enough.

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Piggywaspushed · 11/01/2018 17:57

mum , I'd have to check my facts again but I believe Toby's school was one of those swathes of grammars that went comprehensive while he was there - so, in essence, yes, he is a grammar school boy, I believe.

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Clavinova · 11/01/2018 17:58

MumTryingHerBest
I think you pointed out in a recent post that the school TY attended for sixth form was re-branded as a comprehensive school when he joined - however, only year 7 and 8 would have been 'mixed ability' at the time. Presumably, most of the sixth form had passed the 11plus and considered themselves 'grammar school boys'.

Likewise, several Labour politicians say they went to a comprehensive school, when in fact they and all their classmates passed the 11plus.

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MumTryingHerBest · 11/01/2018 18:07

Clavinova so, if I'm understanding correctly, Grammar School children where being given conditional offers under a scheme to give access to comprehensive pupils.

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LineysRunt · 11/01/2018 18:16

So what's happened to the conditional offers for today's comprehensive pupils? There's not a huge difference between AAA and AA* A.

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LineysRunt · 11/01/2018 18:17

That should read A star x 3

As opposed to A star x 2 and an A

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Clavinova · 11/01/2018 18:24

Clavinova so, if I'm understanding correctly, Grammar School children where being given conditional offers under a scheme to give access to comprehensive pupils

Possibly, yes, but then TY did attend a comp for 5 years previously? Would he have sat a separate exam for Oxford? He seems to have won a Postgraduate scholarship to Harvard as well !?

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MumTryingHerBest · 11/01/2018 18:57

Would he have sat a separate exam for Oxford?

No idea. Bear in mind that he claims he was sent an acceptance letter by mistake and it was only after his father put in a call that he was offered a place.

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noblegiraffe · 11/01/2018 19:43

I've just been reading that no new applications for schools have been successful since 2015, so what has Toby Young been doing for his £90k per year? Confused

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noblegiraffe · 11/01/2018 20:12

Has anyone seen any Toby Young supporters who were bemoaning the 'twitter mob' that got him sacked make any sort of response to this latest revelation?

Any 'oh shit, I thought it was ok when he was only talking about having his dick up some woman's arse, but I didn't know then about the secret eugenics conference with the child rape proponent and the nazi links, sorry'?
Boris? Gove? Sarah Vine?

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 11/01/2018 20:31

Funnily enough I was just wondering whether Sarah Vine was regretting writing this yesterday.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5252817/SARAH-VINE-Toby-Young-second-chance.html

I expect not but it doesn’t read well 24 hrs after she published it does it?

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LineysRunt · 11/01/2018 20:44

Of fuck off Sarah Vine you enormously embarrassing useless creepy mega-twat.

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PricklyBall · 11/01/2018 20:55

Well, it's hardly surprising Sarah Vine, aka Mrs Gove, would write in support of her husband's chum, is it? But yes, "enormously embarrassing useless creepy mega-twat" about sums her up.

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 11/01/2018 21:04

Not at all surprising she’d write in support of him. She probably still would now. It’s just the’it’s all in the past he’s a different person now’ line looks a little unfortunate now. As does the bit about words and actions near the end.

Liney has summed her up perfectly though. Wasn’t she an MNer at one point?

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noblegiraffe · 11/01/2018 21:06

That’s a fab description Liney Grin

God I cringed my way through that article. Awful arse-licking. When we were younger he was always far too edgy for me, always ran with a fast set, surfing that wave of late-Nineties, Cool Britannia chic, before moving to New York, where he cut a swathe through polite society and wrote his book, How To Lose Friends And Alienate People.

Vom.

That’s the thing that really troubles me about Toby’s case. Not so much what he said or why he said it. More that we now live in a world where words speak louder than actions.

Where years of hard work can be obliterated in one misguided sentence uttered in another age.

It wasn’t one sentence, Sarah, it was bloody essays-full of them.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the Gove household when the news dropped.
“Was he definitely there?”
“Yep, he announced it in a memorial speech himself”
“Oh....were loads of people there?”
“No, 24 hand-picked invite-only”
“Oh....maybe he didn’t know what it was about?”
“He gave a speech”
“Oh....maybe it wasn’t as bad as it sounds”
“A paedophilia-supporting neo-Nazi also did a presentation”
“Oh......shit. Wish I hadn’t written that article now. Time to turn off Twitter notifications.”

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 11/01/2018 21:17

I think that’s only how it would go if she had any sort of self awareness.

Good to know that even TY’s friends want to punch his lights out though.

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TheFallenMadonna · 11/01/2018 22:50
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noblegiraffe · 11/01/2018 23:01

Can't read that article (run out of free ones), but it says it's about the Spice girls and Brexit???

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TheFallenMadonna · 11/01/2018 23:08

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Toby Young: once more unto the breach
Toby Young



Toby Young

11 January 2018 9:16 PM
I naively thought that if I resigned from the Office for Students, stepped down from the Fulbright Commission and apologised for the offensive things I’d said on Twitter the witch-hunt would end. In fact, it has reached a new, frenzied pitch. The mob’s blood lust is up and it won’t rest until it has completely destroyed me.

Things took an ugly turn yesterday when Private Eye published a story saying I had attended ‘a secretive conference’ at University College London last year organised by Dr James Thompson, an Honorary Lecturer in Psychology at UCL. This is an annual affair known as the London Conference on Intelligence. It then went on to summarise some of the more outlandish papers presented at this event in previous years – not in the year I attended, mind ­– such as a paper arguing that racial differences in penis length predict different levels of parental care. It pointed out that in 2015 and 2016 this conference had been attended by someone described by the Southern Poverty Law Centre as a ‘white nationalist and extremist’. It even dug up a blog post by one of the attendees in which he tried to justify child rape. It described all these people as my ‘friends’.

Needless to say, this article has led to a deluge of grotesque smears, on everything from the Canary to Russia Today. (The Russia Today article is headlined: ‘Shamed Toby Young ‘attended secret eugenics conference with neo-Nazis and paedophiles’.) More alarmingly, seemingly respectable, mainstream newspapers have followed up these stories – slightly toned down, of course, but with the same implication: that I am a neo-Nazi, an apologist for paedophilia and God knows what else.

So here are the facts. Yes, I went to the 2017 London Conference on Intelligence – I popped in for a few hours on a Saturday and sat at the back. I did not present a paper or give a lecture or appear on a platform or anything remotely like that. I had not met any of the other people in the lecture room before, save for Dr Thompson, and was unfamiliar with their work. I was completely ignorant of what had been discussed at the same event in previous years. All I knew was that some of them occupied the weird and whacky outer fringe of the world of genetics.

My reason for attending was because I had been asked – as a journalist – to give a lecture by the International Society of Intelligence Researchers at the University of Montreal later in the year and I was planning to talk about the history of controversies provoked by intelligence researchers. I thought the UCL conference would provide me with some anecdotal material for the lecture – and it did. To repeat, I was there as a journalist researching a talk I had to give a few months later and which was subsequently published.

Yes, I heard some people express some pretty odd views. But I don’t accept that listening to someone putting forward an idea constitutes tacit acceptance or approval of that idea, however unpalatable. That’s the kind of reasoning that leads to people being no-platformed on university campuses.

In an article for the Guardian, the University of Montreal conference, where I did actually speak, is described as ‘similar’ to the UCL conference. Complete nonsense. It was a super-respectable, three-day affair held at the Montreal Neurological Institute. Numerous world-renowned academics spoke at it, including Steven Pinker, the famous Harvard professor, and James Flynn, the political scientist who has given his name to the ‘Flynn effect’. In 2015, the same lecture I gave – the Constance Holden Memorial Address — was given by Dr Alice Dreger, a well-regarded author and academic.

You can see the website for the Montreal conference, and the roster of speakers, here. Virtually every one is a tenured professor. To reiterate, that’s the conference I spoke at, not the one in London.

Polly Toynbee joined the lynch mob earlier today – or, rather, re-appeared in the lynch mob – in a column headlined: ‘With his views on eugenics, why does Toby Young still have a job in education?’ In the column, she repeats the smear in the headline, calling me a ‘eugenicist’ – again, the implication being that I’m some kind of neo-Nazi. In case you miss the point, she says I’m on the ‘far right’ and I think ‘the poor are inferior’. (Bit rich, considering Polly sent her children to expensive private schools and mine are all at state schools, but still.)

Polly’s ‘eugenicist’ slur – which has been thrown at me by virtually the entire Parliamentary Labour Party – is based on a deliberate misunderstanding of an article I wrote for an Australian periodical in 2015 called Quadrant and is then ‘backed up’ by Polly by selectively quoting from it. She also throws in the fact that I attended a ‘secretive eugenics conference’, etc., etc.

In that article for Quadrant – which you can read here – I discuss an idea first presented by Julian Savulescu, a professor of philosophy at Oxford, which he summarises as follows:

Imagine you are having in vitro fertilisation (IVF) and you produce four embryos. One is to be implanted. You are told that there is a genetic test for predisposition to scoring well on IQ tests (let’s call this intelligence). If an embryo has gene subtypes (alleles) A, B there is a greater than 50% chance it will score more than 140 if given an ordinary education and upbringing. If it has subtypes C, D there is a much lower chance it will score over 140. Would you test the four embryos for these gene subtypes and use this information in selecting which embryo to implant?

Now, we haven’t yet developed the ‘genetic test’ referred to by Savulescu, and it’s possible that we may never do so because: (a) intelligence may not be genetically-based; and (b) even if it is, we may never discover all the subs-sets and combinations of genes associated with it. But what if it is and we do? Science fiction today becomes science fact tomorrow. In my Quadrant article, I discuss an obvious risk associated with the technology described by Savulescu, namely, that if it is ever invented, the first people to take advantage of it will be the rich so they can give their children an even greater advantage than they currently enjoy. In short, it will make inequality even worse.

My solution to this problem, set out in the article, is that this technology, if it comes on stream, should be banned for everyone except the very poor. I wasn’t proposing sterilisation of the poor or some fiendish form of genetic engineering so they could have babies with ‘high IQ genes’ or anything like that. Just a form of IVF that would be available on the National Health to the least well off, should they wish to take advantage of it. Not mandatory, just an option, a way of giving their children a head start. I was thinking about how to reduce the risk that this new technology will exacerbate existing levels of inequality – how to use it to reduce inequality. I described my proposal as ‘a form of egalitarianism’.

It is for this that Polly Toynbee – who obviously hasn’t read the article – has labelled me a ‘eugenicist’.

You think I’m mischaracterising my article? Dressing it up to make it sound less like an extract from Mein Kampf? Don’t take my word for it. Read this summary of my argument by Iain Brassington, who writes a bioethics blog for the Journal of Medical Ethics. After marvelling at all the people who’ve called me a ‘eugenicist’ (including Vince Cable, no less), he points out that what I’m suggesting ‘is in many ways, fairly unremarkable’.

What’s notable from a bioethicist’s perspective is just how familiar the arguments being presented here are. It’s hard to read Young’s article without thinking of a good chunk of the work on genetic screening, and on enhancement, that’s been done over the past few years… it’s pretty standard stuff in seminar discussions about screening; and nor is there anything that is obviously morally beyond the pale.

Hear that Polly? Nothing that is obviously morally beyond the pale. He thinks I’m wrong about lots of stuff, by the way – just not a Nazi. Read his piece. It’s very good.

So that’s the long and the short of it. Because, as a journalist, I went and had a look at a strange conference being held at UCL – and because I discussed a familiar bio-ethics problem in an obscure Australian periodical – I’m some kind of ‘far right’ nut job who shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near kids, let alone schools.

It has been suggested – in the Guardian and elsewhere – that the reason I stepped down from the Office for Students is because I knew the Private Eye article was coming out and my number was up. That’s balls. I said some stupid, puerile things on Twitter late at night of which I’m thoroughly ashamed and for which I’ve unreservedly apologised. It became clear that having said those things, I couldn’t serve on the Office for Students without causing an almighty stink that would render it unable to do its job. But I’m not remotely ashamed of having attended the London Conference on Intelligence.

I believe in free speech. That includes defending the right of researchers and academics, however beyond the pale, to present their findings to other researchers in their field at academic conferences so they can be scrutinised and debated. If you believe someone is putting forward a theory that is wrong, unsupported by the evidence, you should want their theories to be exposed to scrutiny, not swept under the carpet. No-platforming people whose ideas you disapprove of is self-defeating.

That’s been my lifelong credo – and I had hoped to bring it to bear in the Office for Students, which has been tasked with protecting academic freedom. That is not to be and I have accepted that. But enough already. Just because I sat at the back in a lecture room at UCL one afternoon, scribbling away in my reporter’s notepad, while some right-wing fruitcakes held forth about ‘dysgenics’ does not make me a Nazi. If it did, then the fact that Jeremy Corbyn regularly attended a conference run by Holocaust-denier Paul Eisen would make him an anti-Semite.

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TheFallenMadonna · 11/01/2018 23:13

He wrote a blog for Teach First on a similar topic. They took it down after a similar outcry. I think he was saying that education plays very little part in academic success, although he did say it was still important, and then talked about these potential future embryo selections for IQ.

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noblegiraffe · 11/01/2018 23:22

It is for this that Polly Toynbee – who obviously hasn’t read the article – has labelled me a ‘eugenicist’.

Oh Toby, you slimy little shit. Here's a quote from your article. Your own sodding words.

Should people who attend Nazi conferences get government funding?
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snoofy · 11/01/2018 23:35

'her children to expensive private schools and mine are all at state schools' ...which I opened especially for them using government funding.

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thecatfromjapan · 11/01/2018 23:36

I was wondering how he'd try and slide out of the problem of the conference attendance.

'Lynch mob'. Rather an unfortunate choice of euphemism.

He really doesn't understand how unacceptable his behaviour is, how incompatible his own words are with the positions he has been offered and, indeed, still holds.

He really doesn't accept the legitimacy of the outrage.

Stop digging Toby Young. Just go away. Hide. Be quiet. You are an utter disgrace.

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noblegiraffe · 11/01/2018 23:37

I thought that too, snoofy - how many millions did the WLFS cost? He didn't send his kids to a state school, he had one built for them!

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