When parents are slagging off the local comp...

[Everyoneafter3]

I've posted before about my concerns over the local secondary, which, thanks to comments on this board and an excellent recent Ofsted, are very much allayed. I had a very good read of school newsletters etc and am much happier. Dd1 (Y4) is musically gifted and will also audition for a specialist music school.

The area in which we live is very affluent: many children round here go to fee-paying independent schools. These dc are going to school and telling my dd (and others) that the local secondary is rubbish ("my mum and dad say..."). One particularly stupid parent has said at home that "no child of mind will set foot in x school" which of course is coming back home with our dd.

Dd1 has now got it into her head that the local school is terrible, that she's really upset to go to not a good school, that she wishes we weren't poor (we're not! But no, we can't afford independent school fees without having to sacrifice other stuff we prioritise as a family). She's been researching exam results and all sorts.

For our part we've said well look at any local school she'd like to, although as we live across the road from the school in question it'd be unlikely that she'd get in.

I'm heartily sick of parents telling their dc how awful the local school is. It's simply not fair. My dc won't receive a 'lesser' education. They aren't going to a 'rubbish' school. If this continues I'm tempted to speak to their current primary school tbh. What else can I do? I've told dd to not listen, we've looked at the school website, talked about results (!) but I'm at a loss.

[OhTheRoses]

I think the uni's that are actually visiting schools probably aren't asking for AAA to be perfectly honest. No uni has visited ds's or dd's schools. The local uni's (former polys) have good links with the local comps. The local selective schools don't feed into them - they aren't good enough and sit in th bottom half or third of the league tables.

[BertrandRussell]

Depends whether they are recruiting or evangelizing...........

[muttrat]

I would be worried of my 8 year old was researching gcse results! Is she very anxious normally?

[user7214743615]

some of my applicants at universities (Bath, Durham, Exeter, Warwick)

1. Your applicants are international. Different rules apply to them, because different universities compare French to UK grades in different ways.
   

1. The universities/courses you name are at the top of league tables. Thus they may well be in the selective minority I referred to above.
   

1. As pp wrote, you don't actually know why your applicants were rejected. I would personally be astonished if personal statements played a big role, but you are always convinced they do, contrary to what academics such as me write.

[MaisyPops]

OhTheRoses
3 of our local unis are russell group/top20 unis. They do ask for high grades. They also run summer schools for local students and have partnerships in place.
We've had unis from the top, middle and bottom visit the schools in my area over the years. Add to that projects like The Brilliant Club which are set up to develop links between researchers and schools and you'll see the picture is changing.

One of my y13 students has had a reduced offer from a local uni with a travelcard paid for the time she studies if she goes there and lives at home. Ive not come across that until this year.
The thing is that a certain group of MN arent interested in widening participation because they are quite happy with parental income deciding outcomes for kids (look at all the threads on death by tutoring, endless clubs and high school tuition etc).

[user7214743615]

I'm very interested in widening participation (to the extent that I spend a lot of time doing it). It doesn't help to give out misleading information, though. Very few contextual offers are significantly below standard offers (i.e more than one grade down) at high tariff universities. Very few contextual offers are made on the basis of the student being "rounded", unless roundedness is actually relevant to the course. Many RG universities are unwilling to drop offers at all in subjects where lower entrance grades are strongly correlated with higher failure and drop out rates (maths, computer science etc).

On the other hand, many universities are offering incentives for good students from all backgrounds to firm them - travel cards, small scholarships, unconditional offers. Post 2012 it is a competitive environment for universities and they need to get as many (good) students as they can to make their finances work out.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

I'm extremely interested and active in numerous widening participation schemes.

Which is why I know that some of the information you're giving maisy is incorrect.
And I would be astounded if any top twenty university gave out such incorrect information.

[GreenGinger2]

So how do kids show they are well rounded. I have 3 shy unsporty kids. We simply haven't had the money for loads of extra curricular so their PS are going to look pretty empty. They will need to get a Saturday job ASAP to save for uni,would that help?

I have friends whose DC do masses and they keep them doing it for uni applications even though now they are moving up through secondary time wise it causes stress. I'm not sure how much they are really enjoying said activities. That said their applications are going to look pretty impressive.

[Alyosha]

Lots of good research to show it's better to be the best kid in an average school than the average kid in an amazing school.

You can look on DfE and see the proportion of high attainers doing well (assuming your DC is a high attainer!).

The other parents are being very rude. They should wind their necks in.

I went to a naice private school but ended up at exactly the same quality of uni as all of my friends in primary school who went to state schools. Parental background is sadly the main indicator of outcome.

Although there are several excellent state schools trying to turn this around!

Also my private school with a history of success at Oxbridge etc. was very very clear - 95% of uni admissions is on your results!

At least in the UK, I think the US is very different on this.

[Alyosha]

Seriously why does anyone think that UK unis care about sport? It's not a huge money making industry like the US.

Surely the only unis that will care are Oxford & Cambridge colleges whose admissions tutors like rowing/rugby, and only on courses like Land Economy, and only if you are international level at rowing/rugby

[GetAHaircutCarl]

green applicants don't generally need to show themselves to be well rounded.

Universities are interested in how academic they are. Which they show via exam results, pre tests and predicted grades. A personal statement can be further evidence of academic interest but there really is no need for any applicant to over think it.

[GreenGinger2]

So if they have very little if anything of note bar a Sat job but good grades it should be fine? For all unis or just some?

Surely somebody with good grades and Grade 8 in 2 instruments,sports expertise,drama experience is going to look better at balancing life than my DC with the same grades and zilch.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

green truly do not worry.

Sports, music etc are irrelevant except for subject specific courses.

[BoboChic]

If applicants have identical grade profiles from very similar schools, the only distinguishing factor can be the PS and/or reference. References are generally pretty run of the mill. Hence the only differentiating factor is the PS.

[GreenGinger2]

So they do count then as they'll have hoards similar.

[MaisyPops]

Then why are they the messages being given to 6th forms? Why are my students coming back from open days feeling rubbish that unis ideally want work experience for medicine and dentistry? Why are they coming back from open days where theyve been told they need to polish their statements? Why are we being asked to suggest summer schools to our students? Why are we being told that we need to help our kids be rounded so they stand a chance with kids who've got places because mam and dad have paid for shiny private education?

You tell me what the solution is. Or are you really getting at the fact that nobody gives a damn about widening paricipation so anything we're doing is a giant waste of time because an A when youve bought your education and been hothoused by pushy parents is viewed the same as if youve had none of that.

We can only go on the info we're given and you're saying information we've heard, we've been given and our kids have been given is just wrong. So how exactly are these kids meant to get a chance if they're bright but missing out because they've got a B+ and some overindulged tutored to death kid has an A- ?

Are me and my colleagues in state schools just fundamentally wasting our time trying to give our kids the same shot as people who've had the odds stacked in their favour sinve their mam got them a french tutor aged 4?
Sometimes I should just step away from MN school threads. So many people claim to wants a "fair system" but by "fair" they actually mean "my child benefits after ive used my money and social connections to rig it in their favour".

[bigchris]

Year 4s researching gcse results ? The world's gone mad !

[GetAHaircutCarl]

bobo is talking about French applicants with French qualifications.

You're average UK applicants personal statement is very very rarely a make or break issue.

The vast majority of university departments make offers based on predicted grades. An admin assistant inputs them into a computer and the software says yay or nay.
They simply don't have the resources to employ a real tutor to read them all and in any event they are seeking to recruit students not select out.

For the few universities/courses where personal statements form part of the selection process, they would still very rarely be a decider. And sports or music would still be largely irrelevant.

[user7214743615]

So they do count then as they'll have hoards similar.

Sigh. No. This is not how it works for most courses because most are not over-subscribed in practice.

A typical RG maths course might get over 1000 applications for around 200 places. This looks like they are over-subscribed but each applicant can apply to five universities so the course can often make as many as 800-900 offers to get the 200 students. If they get a few more than 200, it won't bother them but if they get significantly less than 200, they'll be in trouble with the university management. So outside the very top courses, where the acceptance rate of offers is of course higher, the offer rate will typically be 80 or 90%. This means that all candidates with similar grade profiles will actually get offers, with personal statements playing little to no role.

For the more selective courses most simply put their academic cutoff higher rather than relying much on personal statements. The most selective courses (Oxbridge, medicine etc) interview and use preselection tests to distinguish between students.

[BoboChic]

Not all my applicants are French, Get, nor do they all have a French bac.

[cowgirlsareforever]

Maisy You are absolutely not wasting your time but I do believe that a lot of the really good universities would want some evidence of a commitment to their chosen subject. That doesn't mean having to spend a lot of money. A history candidate who is widely read, a politics student who has canvassed for a party or a prospective medic who has done voluntary work in a hospice would stand out. I helped a boy with his PS who wanted to study surveying and in his PS he talked about the building developments in his home city and the impact that had socially, economically etc. He got offers from all the universities he applied to.

[user7214743615]

Why are my students coming back from open days feeling rubbish that unis ideally want work experience for medicine and dentistry?

Medicine, veterinary and dentistry are clearly hugely competitive, with selection not just based on grades.

Why are we being asked to suggest summer schools to our students?

Because these help students understand what university study is like and what subject they want to study. Summer school attendance is correlated with better performance at university.

because an A when youve bought your education and been hothoused by pushy parents is viewed the same as if youve had none of that.

You can't buy an A. Universities also can't measure hothousing in any accurate way. But the fact is that students without an A in A level maths do not tend to succeed in maths related courses at higher tariff universities. It is not in the student's interests to be accepted with a low B in A level maths if they are much more likely to fail or drop out.

how exactly are these kids meant to get a chance if they're bright but missing out because they've got a B+ and some overindulged tutored to death kid has an A- ?

A just miss A is typically not treated differently from a just pass A, when decisions are made in August. A just miss A from a low performing school is certainly not treated as worse than a low A from a high performing school.

[BertrandRussell]

Work experience specific to the course being applied for, yes. School Council or DofE no.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

maisy applications for med and vet are slightly different. These are so competitive that applicants will need to demonstrate some working experience/interest. However this can just be volunteering in a care home or a centre for disabled children. Most are very glad indeed for young people who are committed to help.

It does not need to be anything swanky that can only be accessed by those with connections.

And such applications will not be assisted by sports/music other than to show a propensity for multi tasking - which can just as easily be evidenced by a Saturday job in Tesco.

As for 'polishing personal statements' this generally means make them articulate and showing an interest in the subject you propose to study.
Again no sport or music or drama.

Do you know what the most common barriers are for state schooled applicants getting places on competitive courses.

1. They don't apply.
   
2. They are taking the wrong subjects.
   
3. They don't have high enough grades.
   
4. They don't do well enough in pre tests.
   

Apart from number one these are not things that universities can fix.

[MrsT2007]

I still find it amusing that people think grades and university determine how well people do in life.

Communication skills (verbal and written) and EQ are just as important. The ability to influence, work with others, get on with broad range of people.

Clever and socially inept students fail at life and jobs. Less academic but switched on students go far further once they're out of uni and in work.

Yes, Indy schools help building these skills via sport, and other extra curricular activities. But parental help and encouragement in these areas is vital. Cubs etc, findings sport or activities that the child is passionate about and fostering that.....