Maths help

[mathsmum314]

New to MN...

Son in year 9, very academic, loves maths. Last year he became bored in class, wasn't progressing. Teacher explained he was working at highest level but would give more extension work.

New GCSE, harder material, new grades 8+9, not allowed to do it early, additional maths unlikely etc It sat uneasy with me but didn't see any other options, trusted the teachers/school, and hoped the harder GCSE would be enough of a challenge.

Choices made and started GCSE material. My son wants to be either a mathematician or physicist, he loves both. On way to school today he looked at his timetable groaned and said "oh no I hate maths class". I can't let him spend another 2 years hating maths class and destroying his love of the subject.

For example, he spent all last week doing indices, and all this week doing standard form. He usually finishes the work within 5 minutes and gets extensions doing ... more indices and standard form. He might as well have spent two weeks practising his 2 times tables. What he really needs is to move into the sixth forms AS maths class but school says that's not feasible.

Any suggestions on what I can do, what I can realistically press the school to do, because its heart-breaking to see something my son loves being destroyed.

[Toffeelatteplease]

I always see why aren't school doing? And I find myself thinking if it's such a big problem why not just get on with it?

A maths text book doesn't cost a mammoth amount. Many contain fantastic examples coupled with the you tube there is no reason a bright lad can't a couple of hours a week work it through himself, or if you can get a tutor for a couple of hours a week there's half a chance they will be better qualified mathmatically than many schools are able to recuit.

I did A level maths alongside my other a levels in my own time (not top grades just enjoyed it, wasnt keen on the maths teachers for a level). I'm doing a degree in Maths ou for fun now, I see a tutor once every 6 weeks maybe. Teaching isn't always an essential part of learning.

Alternatively/additionally this website had an absolutely fantastic assortment of excellent maths activities designed to deepen mathematical understanding and thinking. When I taught maths I often used them as my extension for bright pupils. If your son's teacher hasn't heard of them, it might be worth asking if your son can do them after he's finished his set work.

As an aside sometimes it is worth checking with the teacher. I had one child who mum was on the war path at parents evening and whose child was too bright for the class, I had to show her the books before she believed me that actually he'd done the barest minimum, because "it was too easy", then messed around. The other children in the class had moved onto a fantastic and rather good fun extension activity. It is absolutely worth checking in with the teacher, firstly so they know the entension activities aren't working for your child but also so ypu make sure you have the whole picture.

FWIW even if it may look like more of the same sometimes it can be because it is but with more challenging numbers sometimes there are some very subtle ways of making work more challenging. Not saying that is always the case but sometimes it is.

There is fantastic benefit to encourage children to taking responsibility for their own learning. There's too much expectation that if it's boring it's the schools responsibility to solve the problem. Your child isn't actually harmed by being bored. Many jobs are boring or have boring aspects how to deal with that is a useful life skill. Given our school system is "free" and therefore has to accommodate large size classes i am at a loss why a child's boredom should have more call on a teachers time than a child who is struggling and whose future prospects are severely limited with they don't get it. There are alternatives: home school and private, but all have there advantages and problems.

In short Teaching your child to be proactive and take responsibility for themselves their own learning is one of the most fantastic life lessons you can give them.

[Toffeelatteplease]

I also think helping other students who are struggling is massively important and underrated.

It is most definitely not a one way street as many people dismiss it as. It is the best way of deepen mathematical concept understanding and identifying gaps in your own knowledge. It is also fantastic for social learning. It is good to see other people's struggles and learn how to deal emphatically. It is also an important lesson in the value of volunteering.1

As an alternative extension exercise along these lines consider suggesting to your DS mentoring. Giving up an hour or two after school a week to help someone who is struggling.

Some schools set this up as a school program.

[ScottishProf]

Toffeelatteplease: yes, children absolutely are harmed by being bored. Agree with most of the rest of what you say, but emphatically not that. Being bored in class is not like being bored in the holidays, when the child can just go and find something to do. Being bored in class, even for not that long each time but each and every week for years, and not having, or feeling they have, the means to alleviate it, can lead to lifelong problems from alienation to perfectionism to self-hatred to what looks very like PTSD. Struggling with boredom in class is every bit as bad as struggling with lack of comprehension. Please don't minimise it.

Of course, ideally all children would have the executive function and impressive negotiation skills to extract themselves gracefully from such a situation, but not all do and it's not on to blame them or their parents for it.

[mathsmum314]

lljkk, No he enjoys and gets satisfaction from all the academic subjects, apart from maybe English. The problem isn't just in Maths, but the Spanish teacher was able to solve it, putting him up a year in Latin worked. Once the comp science got into coding he was left on his own to write programs as hard as he was able to. Science has only improved a little but as the curriculum is so full they move through material very fast. Maths is the major area that you are on such simple topics for a long time.

If your solution is teaching bright children to be bored, give up on learning such an important subject and destroy a love of studying then I would take my son out of school in despair.

[mathsmum314]

Squiss, "This is one very good reason to avoid advancing the curriculum and to try instead to explore stuff that's off curriculum.". on the one hand I agree with you but on the other I think well why the heck do I bother sending him to school.

When they have the ability to do so much more at such a higher level and they end up being dragged down to a standard. I would feel I had failed as a parent.

[Toffeelatteplease]

I spent 4 weeks addressing and stuffing envelopes 9-5.

I've had jobs where I've filled papers for afternoons straight.

I earned a lot of respect from employers and employment agencies for doing so without complaint.

Coming out of education I had an awesome CV. One of the first things employers asked was "not all the job is exciting how do you deal with boredom?"

The answer is not, I let it affect who I am and develop alienation, PTSD and self hatred.

Putting it into context. Your child might have 4 hours a week maths in a state school. A teacher will usually have a fun starter activity for 10 mins of a class, 15 min-20mins explanation 30mins work. Assuming your DC grasps the concept and finishes the work in half the time allowed (and I am also assuming your child is diligent and does finish the work), that leaves them a grand total of just 2 hours a week to be bored in maths.

Say you allow one hours screen time a day after school. If you cut that in half and spent that time doing fun maths they find interesting. They would have more time doing fun maths and screen time than they would spend being bored in maths. It is a matter of perspective.

If they are spending more time than that bored in class they are either not listening to the teacher or underestimating the value of practice.

Boredom is a really important part of life; sometimes it is also an annoying unavoidable part of life. Learning to deal with it while keeping a hang on who you are is a really important life skill.

[Toffeelatteplease]

I agree with you but on the other I think well why the heck do I bother sending him to school.

My DD (primary) learns English maths etc at school. However she also learns about how to be within a community, how to work with the needs of all the community members. She learns about friendship (both good and bad). She is listed as gifted in English and spends half hour a week mentoring a younger student who finds it hard. If heard one of her mates complain they are bored: DD comes home and tells me about how so and so found something really hard or she got a silver card from the teacher for helping out. School is about so much more than maths and English.

they have the ability to do so much more at such a higher level and they end up being dragged down to a standard.

No no no... Attainment is not limited by your achievement at school. You can choose to work ahead outside of school. You can choose to study beyond what you are taught. All too often we teach our children that school need to be challenging them it's schools fault you are bored and you don't achieve.

There's no personal responsibility for attainment. This is so harmful compared to a couple of hours boredom a week

Yes in an ideal world it is what all teachers strive for that every child achieves to the top limit if their ability in fantastically interesting style. But that is an ideal world

[hayita]

Please don't assume that comp teachers are all mathematical dullards.

I didn't say that they were. It is however factually correct to say that comp maths teachers are less likely to have participated in maths Olympiads as kids, and have PhDs in maths related subjects, than maths teachers at the handful of top private schools. As an academic in maths, I know personally maths teachers from the schools already named in the thread as they used to be PhD students/postdoctoral researchers in my department. They have many advantages in catering for the very brightest students (but might not be very good at teaching those who struggle at maths, I've no idea about that).

Why more don't go isn't because of the internet, it's because they are held at the university (transport costs would automatically rule out PP kids), because they are held at the weekend and kids don't want to give up their weekends to do school stuff, and because kids have other stuff on at the weekends, or their families do so they can't get there.

Yes, exactly: posters shouldn't compare maths with sport/music because kids/families are willing to give the weekends for the latter but not for extension in maths. (BTW in at least some places grants for transport are available for PP kids.)

[mathsmum314]

Toffeelatteplease – We are getting on with it. But the whole point of this post was the 250 minutes a week he spends inside maths class. Thanks for the link, that is exactly the sort of thing I am putting to the school, that he can get on with separate material after he has finished his work rather than extensions.
Yes I want to work with the teacher, as he is a good math teacher, just doesn't have the systems in place to do more.
At no point have I said I want to take any more time from the teacher, I am happy to buy and organise any and all work, he just needs to be allowed to do it in class after normal work is done.

[noblegiraffe]

I don't think you need to have a PhD in maths research to be able to challenge a class of bright Y8s!

It's true that I would be out of my depth in trying to get someone through the higher Olympiad rounds, but that's why UKMT assign email mentors for these students (if you know to ask for them).

[mathsmum314]

Toffeelatteplease – He already helps groups in several subjects, including during his free time and in Maths. Honestly, he gets nothing from it that I can see. He has started to resent that in some situations the teachers default position is to send pupils over to my son for help and he doesn't get to do his own work.

[mathsmum314]

Toffeelatteplease – Seriously, your comparing learning maths to stuffing envelopes?!?!?!?! I would imagine you weren’t doing it for fun and had the delayed gratification of a pay packet at the end. I also imagine you weren't trying to fill yourself with a love of doing it, or imagining your future career being stuffing envelopes? Maybe you even had music playing in the background. But would you have done it if I had said “Your very good at stuffing envelopes so I want you to work sub optimally and have both hands tied behind your back while you do it. I can tell you have never been a teacher.

[Toffeelatteplease]

I can tell you have never been a teacher.

Genius.

I have taught maths and I have spent a short time homeschooling (very sucessfully) my own son.

I had said “Your very good at stuffing envelopes so I want you to work sub optimally and have both hands tied behind your back while you do it.

That's the whole point. Noone ties your sons hands that either. It's up to him how he achieves. Especially if he is gifted in maths, he has the skills, it's up to him how he uses them.

Not everything in life is fun and interesting. Sometimes you just have to get on with it.

he gets nothing from it that I can see. learning in life isn't always academic

pupils over to my son for help and he doesn't get to do his own work.
" give me 5 mins and ill give you a hand" social graces, time management and how to manage the needs of yourself and others. And you say he learns nothing from helping others....

[Toffeelatteplease]

I'd be more concerned about a child who has time to be bored but hasnt got time to get his own work done because he had to help someone

[lljkk]

DD hated geography, the most stupid boring subject on the planet. Still, she didn't become alienated, completed homework with diligence, but no way she would take GCSE geography. She wasn't miserable because some of her best mates were in same class & they larked about together. She had great laughs in geography.

Due to lack of compelling alternative DD ended up doing geography GCSE (compressed into single yr). She busted her arse all of yr9 to get an A* because she's very ambitious & will accept nothing less. She can drone on about long shore drift & the social advantages of tourism in low income countries for an hour. Even agrees now that geography IS an important subject that she can enjoy.

You know what they say about only boring people get bored...

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

mathsmum I sent you a pm, you can find it in 'my mumsnet'.

[MumTryingHerBest]

mathsmum314 out of interest how many subjects is your son working beyond GCSE level and which subjects are they?

Have the school confirmed he will get a level 9 in GCSE maths? If so how do they know this?

Why did the school assess him as working at AS level if they were not prepared to teach him at that level?

[mathsmum314]

lljkk, you have a glimpse, try imagining what its like to be in that situation from 3 years old. when the subject is what they want to spend their lives doing, they do it after school, and every moment they have a chance. Geography doesn't even scratch the surface.

[mathsmum314]

Thanks OhYouBadBadKitten

[mathsmum314]

MumTryingHerBest - probably only maths and science (all three), maybe also computer science as he has only just started formal lessons (so educated guess).

School has said he would get 9 in maths, but its new so there is an element of chance so far. They don't know this, its an extrapolation from obvious ability.

School said he should be working at a level they don't normally provide. Why? I guess money!

[AtiaoftheJulii]

This sounds so frustrating. If your son's completing (correctly! ) the classwork with time left over, I can't see any justification for not letting him get his own book out and work for a while on his own problems. Sounds like the maths teacher is just being obstinate for some reason. It's not like you're asking much of the school, just the chance for your son to write on paper, out in the open, rather than secretly on his arms!

Have you discussed this with the head of maths? (Sorry if I missed it - can see you've talked to the HT and his current maths teacher.)

When my son was in y9, he spent 3/5 of his maths lessons out of class having mentoring sessions with a sixth former - they did UKMT problems, random A level topics, or any other interesting things either of them had come across. He kept up with his classwork and his homework. Apart from the initial set up, this was no effort for the school.

I'm sure Kitten has given you loads of good advice Good luck!

[MumTryingHerBest]

mathsmum314 School has said he would get 9 in maths I think it is very foolish of the school to say this given They don't know this. Have you thought what might happen if you allow your DC to rush into taking the exam and they don't get a level 9 or a level 8 even?

mathsmum314 he has only just started formal lessons (so educated guess) again I'm surprised the school is telling you your DC is at GCSE standard in this subject if he has only just started studying it. Has he really covered the entire syllabus already?

mathsmum314 probably only maths and science (all three) well I'm impressed with your DCs school if they have taught him the whole GCSE syllabus in these four subjects already. I'm assuming your DCs school has them select their GCSE options in year 8 rather than year 9 for this to happen?

Whilst he may have identified the 5 subjects he will carry forward to A level, it might be an idea for him to extend his academic portfolio. Top Employers may want more than just 5 A levels on a CV and certainly outstanding grades for 5 GCSEs and average grades for 4 or more GCSEs will not make him stand out against the children who will have 5 A Levels and 9 or more GCSE A*.

[ChopsticksandChilliCrab]

I use the NRICH website a lot as there are lots of thought provoking challenges there. I expect DS's teacher knows about this one though.

If DS does want to look ahead at the easier A level topics at home (which our top GCSE sets cover through doing the Cambridge Additional Maths Course), this is a useful website. The C1 and C2 courses are what he should start with.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

mumtryingherbest, I'm not sure an inquisition is necessary! mathsmum asked for help on ensuring that her ds doesn't waste his maths lessons when he clearly has a strong talent for the subject. A gifted mathematician doesn't need to be taught much of the gcse syllabus, because a lot of it can be logically inferred, so they can work it out as they go along. Some conventions need to be taught and there are a few standalone topics, but much of it is just logical progression.

No top employers would ever want more than 5 a levels. they would be looking at his degree - hopefully in a subject he is passionate about. For example to get onto a maths degree at cambridge, they don't want you to have done as many different subjects as possible, they want you to have demonstrated real, deep interest in maths, beyond the syllabus. (plus superb scores at STEP)

The material is there for schools to provide to gifted mathematicians. It isn't difficult to provide, it isn't expensive and for a child who is very self motivated it doesn't require much administering. But it does require the school to know it is there and for them to take some level of pro-activeness.