Maths help

[mathsmum314]

New to MN...

Son in year 9, very academic, loves maths. Last year he became bored in class, wasn't progressing. Teacher explained he was working at highest level but would give more extension work.

New GCSE, harder material, new grades 8+9, not allowed to do it early, additional maths unlikely etc It sat uneasy with me but didn't see any other options, trusted the teachers/school, and hoped the harder GCSE would be enough of a challenge.

Choices made and started GCSE material. My son wants to be either a mathematician or physicist, he loves both. On way to school today he looked at his timetable groaned and said "oh no I hate maths class". I can't let him spend another 2 years hating maths class and destroying his love of the subject.

For example, he spent all last week doing indices, and all this week doing standard form. He usually finishes the work within 5 minutes and gets extensions doing ... more indices and standard form. He might as well have spent two weeks practising his 2 times tables. What he really needs is to move into the sixth forms AS maths class but school says that's not feasible.

Any suggestions on what I can do, what I can realistically press the school to do, because its heart-breaking to see something my son loves being destroyed.

[mathsmum314]

noblegiraffe, teacher doesn't agree there is a problem and just dismissed my suggestion of him self studying. He thinks he is doing amazing so why change anything and as a model pupil my son isn't rude enough to act up in class.

That's why I am looking advice on how to push this further.

[mathsmum314]

OhYouBadBadKitten, thanks for your opinion, I am getting the feeling I need to insist he is allowed to self study in class, once he has finished normal work.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

agreed. If he is a disciplined sort it can work really well. Try him with a problem solvers handbook on that link. It is a brillant starting point for maths comps.

[Alex1974]

@mathsmum314, I think your son needs to learn how to find new challenges for himself. That's actually the true spirit of mathematics: find new questions and try to resolve them. For example on indices he could wonder if it's possible to find a pair of distinct integers x and y so that xy = yx.
It's depressing to see so many students from all levels who have always been spoon-fed by teachers and have no curiosity, no creativity. I have a DS in Y6 who is rather good in maths and I could train him so that he passes his A levels next year but I won't, because it won't help him in his life. Instead I am teaching him to be curious and creative.
Show the "Groundhog Day" movie to your son, if he understands the messages contained in the movie, he will never be bored again.

[mathsmum314]

Alex, - My son comes home everyday with his arms inked in maths problems. Today he worked out the surface area of the moon, the percentage of water on the earths surface, the weight of all the body's corpuscles, the ratio of a papers length to its width, a very long binary number and something else I didn't understand. All of that was done in secret when he was bored in classes. (Earlier in the week there was a lot of indices problems explored before they became so easy they were boring).

He isn't allowed to work on his own maths problems in class, if he was there wouldn't be a problem. The issue is the work he is told he has to complete in class being several years below him, destroying his love for maths.

[mathsmum314]

I think the other thing was the formulae for the largest possible 3d object (by volume) that can be created with a page.

[JustRichmal]

UKMT involves thinking round problems using maths they already know. AS involves them getting their heads round more difficult concepts in maths. Both are important in skill building for maths.
I have always thought it ridiculous that children, no matter what their ability must go at the speed of the national curriculum. (Nigel Kennedy, stop that Vivaldi and do Twinkle Twinkle on the triangle with the rest of the class) The national curriculum is just a manmade construct where as maths will continue to be fascinating.
Because dd already has a GCSE, secondary do let her do her own thing in maths. Keep going in to school. It sounds like the subject your son is really interested in is a real waste of time at school. Keep going in to school to talk. Have a clear mind you want to get from it the agreement that he can do his own maths in the class. The negotiations in getting this will probably make you well suited for the Diplomatic Service and will not all be done in one meeting. He can then learn at his own pace at home and do questions quietly in his lessons.

[noblegiraffe]

There are lots of more difficult concepts which aren't on the school curriculum or which are only touched on which could be investigated instead of doing the school stuff early thus guaranteeing that maths in school will always be easy and boring.

I think the higher UKMT levels introduce more difficult non-school theorems which are required for their harder problems. Their stuff is also closer to what actual mathematicians do than school stuff - talking about Olympiad questions here, not the multi-choice challenges.

[RedHelenB]

Children change. My dd loved maths but now at AS level isn't so bothered about it despite getting 100% in most tests. Why the need to rush forward all the time, use the lesson for chill time so that more concentration can be used in other lessons that aren't so easy.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

noble - that is true, especially on the geometry side and inequalities.

[hayita]

What he needed was to do AS maths. Extension work and Mentoring schemes are ok, but they don't address the problem of being bored and turned off by the school maths classes. People who don't have children who are really really good at maths don't understand this, and that includes a lot of teachers.

But many people who are really really good at maths and whose DC are really really good at maths actually don't agree with you that jumping up the curriculum is the best way to proceed.

There is plenty wrong with the US system, but when you get to university, you can take very advanced classes if you are ready for them.

A problem with schools pre-teaching first year material is that they typically can't cover all of it, at the right level, and thus students still have to do first year courses at university to get the foundations needed to take more advanced classes. (And as noble points out it's not like lots of teachers would be able to teach university level maths anyhow.)

In reality this is the case in the US system too: at the very top US universities you can't walk into very advanced maths classes without showing you have mastered absolutely all the material from earlier classes. In practice this means that while you might be able to skip out of basic calculus etc via AP you can't jump that many maths classes.

I genuinely do not see that very many students in the UK need to be taught beyond A level maths and further maths, when so few do well on STEP tests based on A level material. Even if you can ace A level papers, this is absolutely no guarantee that you understand the material enough to tackle very challenging STEP 2 and 3 papers. STEP/Olympiads usually suffice to keep even the very top mathematicians engaged and occupied in sixth form.

[mathsmum314]

Thanks for the advice all, have more of an idea about what to try now.

RedHelenB - of course children change, and if/when he does I guess it wont be an issue. He is not rushing forward its his natural pace and level, more a case of not holding him back.

Imagine telling a football mad talented teenager who wants to go to the park and kick a ball around, "chill, relax sit on the couch and watch a documentary about hippos". Imagine in PE he was forced to practise with children who just walked around and weren't interested in tackling. He would be tormented.

Maths class used to be relaxing for him, its now stressful and getting him depressed.

[mathsmum314]

hayita - A lot of parents think moving further and faster is the only way to solve the lack of challenge because what else does the school have except the curriculum (I don't blame them). That's why I am on here, to try and find advice on what else to try because the school doesn't seem to have any other options either.

[noblegiraffe]

This was discussed on another thread (about the glass ceiling for gifted and talented children). The problem isn't necessarily the state curriculum for maths, which is perfectly adequate in challenge for the vast majority of children, it's the expectation that the state school system should automatically cater for the minority of students who are exceptional. There isn't this expectation in other subjects - the football-mad talented teenager's PE teacher wouldn't be expected to provide specialised football coaching for his particular skills within a PE lesson. For talented students in football, extra curricular coaching, junior football clubs and so on would be expected to pick up the slack.
The problem is the lack of specialist clubs/organisations intervening, and the lack of any actual guidance about what to do with these students.
The UKMT, like I said, run training camps and select students for international competition, with suitable candidates handed to them on a plate by the maths challenges. They run their mentoring schemes, but they make absolutely no effort to ensure that students who would benefit actually access them - it's totally reliant on the interest of the school.
They recently sent us a list of the top 100 scorers in the Y9 Olmpiad competition. It was dominated by private and grammar schools, with schools like Westminster and Eton having several students on the list. These schools would have coached their students for the competition - normal state comps do not have the resources, nor the amount of top students required to make this viable, but there are no private clubs to do this either.

[mathsmum314]

Nobel, don't you think the PE department has after school football for the best 11, not to mention tournaments and occasionally guest coaches. The music department provides extra instrumental lessons. The language department organises exchanges / trips for those with a language talent. The minority that struggle at Maths or English get extra help. The Drama department do massive extra productions with the talented actors. In English they get to pick books for reading that are appropriate to their level of ability.

But in maths nothing is done for this small group. Would it be that hard to stick them on a table with a text book and left to get on with their own thing?

[hayita]

They run their mentoring schemes, but they make absolutely no effort to ensure that students who would benefit actually access them - it's totally reliant on the interest of the school.

I think this is unfair, in that you are implicitly putting the blame onto UKMT. UKMT simply don't have resources to deal properly with the access issue but saying they make absolutely no effort is too extreme. The access problem is one small part of a much bigger inequality/access issue in schools.

BTW I think you are also exaggerating the amount of coaching done by top schools for Olympiads: as a parent of a DC who attends a school that does very well in Olympiads, I would say that the only "coaching" at that age is a couple of optional lunchtime sessions. The biggest factor in getting the high scores is probably the peer group of very high ability students.

Would it be that hard to stick them on a table with a text book and left to get on with their own thing?

Have you noticed that there aren't really that many maths textbooks these days, and those that exist cover specific curricula? I'm really not sure how handing out a GCSE type textbook would help those who need deeper work.

[mathsmum314]

hayita, I know schools have limited resourses and text books these days. I could go up to my sons room and show you a dozen maths books, from popular science, puzzles/problems, past and present, to exam board 'style' layout that could be used to stretch, broaden and challenge exceptional maths students. That is one thing I am sure of.

[noblegiraffe]

mathsmum PE and music departments provide so much extra curricular stuff because they have a very small marking load, exam pressure and exam class sizes compared to a core subject like maths. Schools advertise their sporting results and extra curricular music offerings, but live or die by the their exam results in maths and English, so that's where the effort goes in those subjects.

In terms of peripatetic instrument teachers, and sports tournaments - these exist. They don't for maths!

Also, you're talking like there are large numbers of exceptional students twiddling their thumbs in maths lessons - there aren't. Maths is usually setted and most are catered for by maths and possibly further maths GCSE, maths and possibly further maths A-level.

I'm not sure why you think that sticking bright maths students on their own table with a textbook is ideal. As mentioned above, textbooks are pretty crap.

[noblegiraffe]

I think you are also exaggerating the amount of coaching done by top schools for Olympiads

I disagree, because I've seen pages like this www.drfrostmaths.com/page.php?page=3 and also looking at the Olympaid style questions, there is no way that several students from the same school could coincidentally come in the top 50 in the country without having practised lots of similar styles of questions which are nothing like GCSE questions.

As for the UKMT - to be fair I don't know what their remit is, and I've not really looked at the stuff they send to schools, merely their website, but when I had a really bright student, it was from MNet rather than the UKMT that I found out you could enter students for competitions above their age category and get them assigned a mentor.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

There is coaching in top schools and even offering lunchtime sessions is more that most secondary schools can offer. Many schools have no idea how it works, offering at best the maths challenges, often in suboptimal test conditions. When the occasional kid makes it through to the olympiad, unless they are very proactive themselves, or have teachers who can point them in the right direction of material to work thorough, they have very very little chance of being an olympiad high scorer, especially once into bmo 1.
The mentoring scheme can be really good, but unless people know about it and ask to be on it, they won't get on it unless like noble says, they realise that they can enter the senior challenge early, or if they score highly enough to make it to a summer camp.

[hayita]

several students from the same school could coincidentally come in the top 50 in the country without having practised lots of similar styles of questions which are nothing like GCSE questions.

But now you are picking up on another issue: at top schools the maths teachers tend to have PhDs/research experience in maths. They don't just teach GCSE to the top set, but teach deeper and beyond. This is true in top schools all the way through: compare a common entrance paper to a KS paper, and see the difference, and then bear in mind that top pupils are taught way deeper than common entrance. I don't think there is lots of Olympiad coaching, but the actual maths lessons are different. Since it's unrealistic to have PhD trained maths teachers in most schools, the only thing which might work is that local schools could send their best pupils to these schools for extension work in maths... in my area this already happens.

BTW upthread it was commented that there are no maths clubs, as there would be sports clubs or out of school music/drama. In a number of cities there have been initiatives to start maths circles/clubs by universities. These would target kids from the age of 14-18, run on weekends and would cost a small fee per session to cover expenses i.e. pay graduate students to help run, pay for use of rooms. Yet as I understand it these initiatives have not been terribly successful, despite considerable efforts to advertise them to local schools (and efforts to target at deprived schools, with offers to waive costs for such pupils). The main reasons for the low uptake are apparently (a) pupils too busy with GCSE/A level/extracurriculars and (b) lots of resources are already available on the internet for extension in maths.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

maths circles are brilliant for those who can get to them - a chance to bounce ideas of like minded people, a place for maths lovers to be totally themselves.

[lljkk]

I don't see how the solution is more maths or harder math. If anything, he is too used to only getting satisfaction from a narrow subject & needs to broaden out what he can do in many areas. Ultimately that will give him lots more choices for what he can do with maths ability, too.

Math is what, 4.5 lessons a week? How bad is the rest of his school experience that he gets no joy from the other 25 hrs/week in school.

Plus life has boring moments. I work with mathematician PhDs & they really don't spend all their time proving that you can't comb all the hairs on a tennis ball the same way (& cleverer things). They have loads of repetitive boring standard math things to do, too, never mind the admin or getting trapped in the same aimless meetings as me.

[Squiss]

I had exactly the same problem with DS1. Came up against a brick wall with school. It was an average comp and I got the impression they were delighted to have a quiet pupil who was guaranteed A*s in maths and they were unwilling to put any effort into stretching him. I suggested UKMT / FSMQ to no avail.
In the end I gave up on maths and got DS to concentrate on improving his performance in other subjects which were not so easy for him. He was bored in maths lessons for a couple of years but continued to read and absorb Maths and Physics books at home, along with watching Youtube lectures.
A level maths at Sixth form college was all new for him and he whizzed through it with fresh enthusiasm. This is one very good reason to avoid advancing the curriculum and to try instead to explore stuff that's off curriculum. Otherwise he will be equally bored at A level, and while he may still find it easy at least he will have something to learn. DS is now doing a Maths degree at a top uni and in his element.

At the time I didn't know what else to do. When you've begged the school for help and failed and you are not a mathematician yourself, it's hard. I think that DS thinks I should have done more, especially now that he know just how much maths there is. Even after a four year degree there are areas he has barely scraped the surface of.

[noblegiraffe]

hayita Please don't assume that comp teachers are all mathematical dullards, top set at a highly selective school is going to be very different to a top set at a comp which would make that group approach viable.

But did you look at the link I posted? It's clear that at some schools there is lots of Olympiad coaching. The UKMT mentoring scheme is a provision of resources specifically to coach kids for the Olympiad!

Our local uni runs weekend maths masterclasses for Y8. We usually get one or two kids who go. Why more don't go isn't because of the internet, it's because they are held at the university (transport costs would automatically rule out PP kids), because they are held at the weekend and kids don't want to give up their weekends to do school stuff, and because kids have other stuff on at the weekends, or their families do so they can't get there.