Is it me, or is the French GCSE a complete waste of time?

[dollybird]

So DS is in year 9 fast-tracking his French GCSE and is sitting his speaking and writing exams this week. For the speaking he has been given four questions and has practiced his answers until he knows them off by heart, and similar for the writing, they have memorised what they are going to write and just write it in the exam (and are given a list of key words and allowed to have a dictionary)!

Is this really all that it takes to get a language GCSE (he's predicted a B)? I got a B 20+ years ago, and the speaking was having a conversation with the teacher, where you knew you would be asked about family/hobbies etc but you didn't know exactly what would be asked and a conversation would follow on from your answers. And similar with the writing, we didn't know exactly what we would have to write about. It seems to me it is more of a memory test than actually learning the language, and for those wanting to go onto A-level, I imagine leap would be absolutely huge.

[granolamuncher]

French GCSE is a disgrace. My DS got an A* and he can't speak it for toffee. Apparently you get top marks if what you say is comprehensible to a sympathetic listener. Try finding one of those in Paris!

The French are rightly proud of their language but our exam boards treat it with contempt, allowing students to get away with lazy and half hearted attempts at it.

[BlueSmarties76]

Really, it's been dumbed down that much!? That students just have to write or speak pre learned answers!? Shocking.

I no longer have any confidence in the British exam system. There have been so many changes, I could never judge the relative merits of one job applicants A grade against another taken at a different time.

Like others have said, when I took mine it was a spontaneous discussion with the teacher and although the topic would be known the precise questions would not. The written exam could be on any subject and required a short essay.

What exactly will the new exams be like? I've heard it will be 100% exam based, but that's all I know.

[IguanaTail]

I explained the new exam briefly at 21:50.

Yes 100% exam. No idea what the true standard will be - goalposts will be shifted all the time on that.

Pre- learnt speeches are ridiculous. What the exam boards currently intend for them to do is to plan out what to say and then have 40 prompt words to use as inspiration and kind of have a semi-off the cuff one way discussion. Examiners listening often comment that it sounds like they've learnt it off by heart. Errrrr yeah??? That's what nervy 15 year olds do. They don't come in with a rough idea of a few pointers and develop their speech on the hoof.





You conjugate verbs; you decline nouns.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Controlled assessments are a daft exercise. Very good way to pick up a lot of marks for those prepared to put the prep work in and learn the piece off by heart. Which I suppose in a way is a quality worth rewarding, but not necessarily a good test of language proficiency.

The rest of the current GCSE is too prescriptive ( don't know about the new exams) but that said, it is only the starting point: a basic entry to MFL.

Those expecting a GCSE syllabus to produce fluency are naive. The GCSE syllabus in all subjects is designed to be basic.

[BoboChic]

MFL GCSEs are a scandal and a tragedy. The current approach to mainstream MFL teaching in English schools is a sad travesty of an introduction to other languages and cultures.

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

Yeah, they're crap. I don't know what the answer is, though - when they were hard (which, to be fair, is also before my time), only the brightest got to take that O level in the first place. And now they're piss easy, that's actually becoming the case again anyway, because of the eBac/'Best 8' etc. In Latin, dd will be gutted she missed a mark because she translated something like 'they were flying joyously' rather than 'they flew in a joyous manner' - in German, nothing like the same precision applies. It's a real shame, but we're so rubbish at engaging with other languages in this country that I think the GCSE syllabus reflects that.

It's one reason I think the jump between GCSE and A Level is much more marked in MFLs than any other subject (IMO and E) - somehow A levels in MFLS have retained a bit more of the old-school, and at the same time GCSEs in them are more dumbed down than most other subjects.

[BoboChic]

Part of the answer is to acknowledge that it is impossible to get any kind of meaningful grasp of French, Spanish or German without a serious underpinning of grammar.

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

And you can't emphasise the importance of grammar whilst not bothering with it much in English lessons.

[BoboChic]

My perception is that there is an increasing emphasis on grammar in the English curriculum but that it is still not treated in sufficient depth to provide an adequate framework upon which to hang French, Spanish or German grammar.

[IrenetheQuaint]

Yes, I was recently doing an intermediate German evening class and had to explain the accusative to a fellow student who despite two years of German and a standard UK school education before that had never grasped the concept

GCSE French was ludicrously basic in my day 20 years ago, and it sounds like it's got even worse. Thank God they're changing it.

[Majaso12]

My ds did his German GCSE in 2015 and it seems his school is the only one who didn't let them take their speaking and listening controlled assessments home to learn. They were only allowed a set amount of time to write them and were not given any help, we were told the exam boards don't allow that. They were also only allowed one attempt at it. it gets me so angry that other schools do not stick to the rules. A friend's ds did poorly in his speaking and was allowed to retake it the next day. My ds did one speaking in year 10 and wasn't allowed to retake it in year 11. His teacher told us it was much more difficult than it was 2 years ago. It wouldn't have been though, if he was allowed to learn them off by heart.

[BertrandRussell]

My ds is certainly learning Spanish grammar- regular class tests on verbs and so on. He is very lucky that his teacher is a native speaker- not entirely sure why he's teaching in a secondary modern school in the Home Counties, but very glad he is. I think the new syllabus seems more rigorous- dd got an A 4 years ago, and as she said "if you want to ask where the swimming pool is, or name the contents of your pencil case in any Spanish speaking country, I'm your woman"

[BoboChic]

Bertrand - native Spanish speaking teachers are popping up everywhere in France and the UK. The economic situation in Spain means teachers can earn far more in France and England. Not just MFL, either. Look out for maths - Spain is exporting maths teachers in a big way.

[IndridCold]

I was totally astonished when someone told me that they don't teach the conjugations of the verbs etc. I just couldn't believe it!

DS took his GCSEs this year, and he was certainly taught grammar in great detail, he also had to have a half hour conversation session every week with the French teaching assistant. He was able to chat to our French hosts during our holiday this summer, although it was fairly basic stuff.

[Needmoresleep]

DD is dyslexic and found the approach used by her French and German text books really hard. The French one seems to be effectively a phrase book. A different situation each time and a list of vocab and phrases that went with it and very little explanation of the grammar or any breakdown of something like "qu'est-ce que c'est que ca". She has a good oral memory, so exposure, and then some supplementary grammar to help her decode the written stuff, worked. Ditto German where she did a whole year and still could not conjugate the present tense of sein. In the end we went completely off-piste and she learned the vocab in the summer holidays before GCSE and we bought copies of the text books my son's school, which had a far more traditional approach, used.

Just as well as memorising the phrases for the oral was very time consuming and took most of the Easter holidays. She was given the list of possible topics and she had to prepare answers and learn them. The maddest of all was that the teacher did not correct the answers, so my daughter was essentially learning her own inaccurate German. I don't know if it was cheating but this seemed totally silly so I got her to go round to some German neighbours who helped her at least make sure what she was learning was correct. Then car journeys where she would would recite "Cette photo..." or "Dieses photo..." until word perfect. Her school's learning support department were astonished she had even attempted two MFL. Yet in real life its the oral skills that matter so no reason why dyslexics should not do well.

Interestingly when German exchange students were around, she was about the only one who just had GCSE who was willing to attempt a conversation with them and who could follow a reasonable amount. I assume the others could talk about recycling and hospitals (durchfall and herzanfall are the words that stick with me from testing her) but not much else.

[BoboChic]

needmoresleep - I used to tutor the dyslexic son of a friend of mine in English and also found that his excellent aural memory made learning languages absolutely fine providing grammar was learned systematically and reinforced by conversation repetition techniques.

[BertrandRussell]

We do also need to be a bit careful about the rose tinted retrospectacles.

I did O level French and Italian back in the old days when men were men and exams were hard and only 2% went to University. And small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri

I knew a lot of verbs by heart, and could have written a short, grammatically correct letter. But I could barely speak a word. Huge emphasis on absolute accuracy of grammar. None at all on communication. And surely at this level communication is the most important thing of all.

[BoboChic]

It's a false dichotomy to contrary communication skills and knowledge of grammar. You cannot have communication skills without proper grammatical underpinnings in MFL.

[Needmoresleep]

BR, however in those days CSE was not a bad option, giving you the sort of French you might want to use. I certainly envied the lower set as we attempted to wade through Le Grand Meaulnes. (My memory had it as the grand moan.) Are MFLs life skills or academic subjects. At the moment they are neither.

[BertrandRussell]

Of course you need "some" grammar to communicate. But the level required for the old O levels went way beyond anything you might need to communicate - and learning it by heart was the main element of the exam. I would be very sad to go back to that.

I actually spoke reasonably good Italian, but still had to learn grammar that I had never used before for O Level. I can't remember any of it now- I just remember being surprised that I could read, write and speak Italian much better than anyone else in the class (my mother was a native speaker) but I still had to learn grammar!

[BertrandRussell]

I'm afraid I predate CSE!

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

Are MFLs life skills or academic subjects. At the moment they are neither

This! I'm not sure they've ever managed to be life skills, actually - but in trying to be, they've lost the academic angle and don't seem to have gained much instead.

[BertrandRussell]

I think at GCSE languages should be a life skill.

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

And then of course we have to decide what we mean by that .....

[BertrandRussell]

Well, as I said, dd can ask where the swimming pool is and name the contents of her pencil case............