Selective education, Kent's 11 plus and Grammar School system

[TootingJo]

I moved to Kent unaware of the selective system and found out most of my daughter's friends had 11 plus tutors. We got her a tutor with just a few weeks to go but I feel it was too little too late and she failed the Kent test.

She judged herself a failure, saw all her best friends go to Grammar schools, and went to a school that got closed down after being put into special measures. Her latest school has just had a poor Ofsted rating and disruption in class is a real problem.

I feel that Kent's system is great for those that achieve Grammar school places, but that the quality of teaching suffers in the rest of the schools. I love that my daughter is now in a local school, her Grammar school friends have hours of travel each day while she can walk to school. But as a middle class mum who's seen 'the other side' of local education I would love to have regular comprehensive schools here. I know no education system is perfect, but this one seems to serve the bright 30% at the expense of the 70% who fail at eleven. Looking at Ofsted stats it's clear that the best teaching is in Grammar schools in this county, but surely good teaching should not be reserved for the brightest pupils?

I would love to see a referendum on the school system in Kent, to allow the people here to choose the education system. It could be that I'm a lone voice and everyone else loves it! Any thoughts?

[BertrandRussell]

"It is not a SM vs grammar issue but any school vs sporty school."

Can I just check before I reply to that- do you live in a wholly selective area? And do you have children in state schools in said wholly selective area?

[summerends]

Actually my DCs' school get regularly beaten by the SM equivalent schools they play football or other sports against. Quite rightly so since they are less good.

[BertrandRussell]

"Actually my DCs' school get regularly beaten by the SM equivalent schools they play football or other sports against. Quite rightly so since they are less good."

Doesn't really answer my question, though.....

[summerends]

No I cross posted but since you have ignored the question in my previous post (second paragraph in the post before in case you missed it) I am happy not to follow down your track of ' you can't have a correct view unless you have a DC in SM'.

[BertrandRussell]

I replied at 8.13.

To repeat. There is a difference between not making a team as an individual, and being at a school which is always beaten by the selective schools. You were told at 10 that you weren't good enough to go to the grammar- and then. for the rest of your school career you are repeatedly shown that the school you are at is not as good as the grammar school. What do you think that does to morale, aspiration, self esteem and social cohesion?

[morethanpotatoprints]

camel

There are selective schools for most things, sport, academic, music, drama, dancing.
An academically selective school might not select on sporting or musical ability or vise versa.

[BertrandRussell]

"Selective schools don't select on the basis of sporting prowess. There is no reason why a non selective school should not win if their team is better."

Nope. They select on parental involvement, parental income and parental social class. Cunningly disguised as a series of "intelligence" tests!

Coincidentally, exactly the same parental demographic that has the time and/or energy and/or money and/or inclination to arrange extra curricular activities for their primary age children.........

[BertrandRussell]

Camel- if they did it that way they would have practically the same cohort!

"The barrier is the test. 50% of FSM children with level 5s in Kent did not apply for grammar schools. That is what needs to change."

What sort of numbers are we talking here?

[LumpySpacedPrincess]

I'm in Kent and I hate the system. Dd sits the test in September. She will practice some papers in the holidays but that's it. She's a bright kid who has always sat on the higher ability table and has always had excellent sat and cat test results, so she is genuinely suitable for selective education. I hare the fact that she may go to a different school to her best friends. I hate then fact that she may not pass but someone who has been taught the test will. In our school all the behavior is on the lower ability tables so one school has to deal with all that. Sucks, I would love to have the option of a good comprehensive instead.

[summerends]

Bertrand I replied at 8.13. no you did n't. You came nearer to answering it this time
I repeat the question (which refers to what's best for an individual DC)
As I said what's worse -being regularly beaten or alternatively being excluded from being in the team because of competing with coached DCs

Out of all your arguments against SM (and of the Kent system I would n't disagree with some of them) this has to be the weakest.
Personally I think DCs gain from being in a team and if a SM gives that opportunity to them but a comprehensive does n't that is a plus not negative for the SMs.

What's needed in your local SMs is better school sports coaching to at least do the best they can as school teams. Outside individual coaching does n't help teamwork, look at the England football team .

[BertrandRussell]

Thank you for acknowledging that I "came nearer" answering.

You, however, have not come anywhere near answering whether you live in a wholly selective area and have a child in a state school.

[summerends]

Bertrand I have n't answered because I can predict your line of reasoning whichever way I respond (since this is a well-trodden path) and it has had little impact. By short circuiting it saves you wasting time and energy.

[BertrandRussell]

Of course. Entirely your prerogative . But it would perhaps be good therefore if you didn't tell me that you know better than me about my lived experience?

[summerends]

The urge to make the point again won .
' you can't have a correct view unless you have a DC in SM'.
Individual personal experience is important but should n't be used to stifle debate unless you are just interested in discussing it with people who have exactly your perspective?

[BertrandRussell]

I'm not stifling debate. Feel free. But do not feel free to tell me that my experience is wrong because this completely different set of circumstances! What, for example, is a "SM equivalent" school?

[TootingJo]

I've been looking into ways to actually do something about this, or try to give Kent parents a say. It's pretty depressing really.

There's a report from the education select committee which asks the government to clarify their position on selective education. The reply is...

'The Government does not support selective education and does not want to see it extended in terms of the number of places offered. The Government’s aim is to improve standards in all schools so that all children have an equal opportunity to develop and fulfil their potential....the Government does not want to see a return to the 11 plus.'

Then the committee's reviews the current Grammar School Ballot system for appealing to change the system. It describes the system as 'unwinnable.'

The current arrangements for grammar school ballots demonstrate that the Government is not prepared to give all local parents a genuine opportunity to express an opinion on the kind of schools they want their children to attend. The present system does not work. It should therefore be withdrawn and replaced with new arrangements.

The Government's reply is... 'Grammar School Ballots. 'The Government does not agree with the conclusion of the Committee but will give consideration to its proposal for a specialised study into the matter.'

So to try to change something the government clearly states it doesn't agree with, the best plan is to wait for a consideration of a study!?

[summerends]

Bertrand I certainly would n't question your individual experience (although coloured by a particular stance) but I do question your use of this particular line of reasoning which as I say is the weakest of the arguments you have put forwards against the SM system.
You also still have n't answered my question.
what's worse -being regularly beaten or alternatively being excluded from being in the team because of competing with coached DCs

[BertrandRussell]

"what's worse -being regularly beaten or alternatively being excluded from being in the team because of competing with coached DCs"

In a comprehensive system there will be A teams and B teams- and even C teams that will be on a reasonable par with each other .So an opportunity to play in a team for everyone who might want to. And teams able to give each other a decent game. A secondary modern's A team will almost always be be beaten by a grammar's A team. Some people on here have said that their grammar schools don't even play non selective schools!

I didn't say it was the most important argument against selective education, but it is yet another example of how if you are at a secondary modern you are constantly being reminded that both you and your school are second best.

What's a "SM equivalent" school?

[MummySparkle]

I was at an all girls grammar school and on the netball team. We were pants! The SMs had far more coaching than us and we're far better players. At our school anything that wasn't academic was hidden away and not really encouraged

[summerends]

MummySparkle That's why I think with certain sports like football, netball and running it is actually more school dependent than grammar versus SM.

However Bertrand following your line of thinking, individual DCs would swop from losing against the A teams of grammars full of coached DCs to being always relegated to lower teams in the same schools as the coached DCs. I am not sure that the latter is more socially just since the DC is still conscious of their supposed inferiority.

'SM equivalent 'are schools that are not favoured by well resourced parents and therefore consist of mainly DCs who are unlikely to access the MC extras.

Anyway despite all this quibbling over sport inequality, I do agree that the Kent system is divisive and grammar schools don't always do their best for their pupils either.