Selective education, Kent's 11 plus and Grammar School system

[TootingJo]

I moved to Kent unaware of the selective system and found out most of my daughter's friends had 11 plus tutors. We got her a tutor with just a few weeks to go but I feel it was too little too late and she failed the Kent test.

She judged herself a failure, saw all her best friends go to Grammar schools, and went to a school that got closed down after being put into special measures. Her latest school has just had a poor Ofsted rating and disruption in class is a real problem.

I feel that Kent's system is great for those that achieve Grammar school places, but that the quality of teaching suffers in the rest of the schools. I love that my daughter is now in a local school, her Grammar school friends have hours of travel each day while she can walk to school. But as a middle class mum who's seen 'the other side' of local education I would love to have regular comprehensive schools here. I know no education system is perfect, but this one seems to serve the bright 30% at the expense of the 70% who fail at eleven. Looking at Ofsted stats it's clear that the best teaching is in Grammar schools in this county, but surely good teaching should not be reserved for the brightest pupils?

I would love to see a referendum on the school system in Kent, to allow the people here to choose the education system. It could be that I'm a lone voice and everyone else loves it! Any thoughts?

[timeandtimeagain]

Thanks Blue. I dont live in Kent. But I know of parents only moved into our county after their dc got a place. I dont know how many other 11Plus their dc may have taken or passed before they accepted this one. But If we want our dc to be in a good comp we need to live in the catchment before applying. What annoys me the most is that gss dont seem to care about their local community.

[BlueBrightFuture]

timeandtimeagain,

Also kids who stand no chance to get in to a school based on distance may still sit the test as a practice run for when they sit a test for their local schools. They will ofcourse not take up their places if they pass but their scores will still be considered to draw up the pass mark. This in turn will have an impact on those who miss out by lets say 1 mark.

It is not that unusual really. I know of at least 12 who have take the Kent test, passed and did not apply for places in Kent this year.

[BlueBrightFuture]

I think the problem with GS is that so many people want them and apply for them which made the pass rate far too high resulting in to kids who could do well in a GS not getting a place.

We are not in Kent but share a border with Kent and both mine sat the local 11+ as well as the Kent test. Trouble is that a lot of Bexley residents take the Kent test as a back up because Bexley is surrounded by areas who got rid of their GS and are people are hopping over the border to get a place.

Bexley does not protect it's local residents. The top 180 get a place in whatever school they like regardless if they live in Bexley or on the moon. The rest of the places goes by looked after, siblings, distance etc... At least some Kent schools favour their local parishes.

Whilst I agree with the fact that GS are good for those in it but perhaps not so for those who are not a lot of families may not be in a position to buy/rent property in areas with good comprehensive schools… The fact that you need expensive tutors to pass is a myth. Mine did not have a tutor and I know of some who had been tutored for years and didn’t pass.

If there would be a referendum in GS areas I think those in favour of the GS would win hands down. Not so sure if the same would be the case if there was one in an area without GS.

I think however that if you have strong views and favour one system over another it would be good to do your homework before moving in to an area.

[timeandtimeagain]

What is the % of gs dcs apply and take the test are from way outside of the gs town or its normal catchment area?

[Stillwishihadabs]

Ds is going to one of those school (prefer not to give out too much identifying information) in September, we went to an open day recently, it feels terribly MC and like a private school.

[timeandtimeagain]

Can someone tell me is it about 30+% gs dcs are originally from private schools??

[CecilyP]

Yes, maybe scary, but full of factually incorrect information, uncorroborated statements and distorted facts and, at best, misunderstanding of the system as it exists in Kent. I wouldn't want to go through the bother of unpicking line by line, but this stood out, 'but I am quite certain that Kent’s distorted, besieged system of vestigial selection, surrounded on all sides by areas which have gone comprehensive ...' Far from being vestigial, Kent's system represents in microcosm what the selective system once was throughout the UK.

Does Peter Hitchens even know where Kent is or how large it is? 'surrounded on all sides by areas which have gone comprehensive' Err no, Kent is mostly surrounded by sea. And yes, LaVolcan, St Olave's School is in the London Borough of Bromley and has been for the last 47 years.

But I am loving his idea that secondary modern schools are of no more relevance to selective education than the armed forces, Tony Hancock, Iran, Strictly Come Dancing, Greece, Kate Moss, the BBC licence fee, the weather and Wimbledon.

[LaVolcan]

I hardly bothered to read the whole blog, but some things immediately stuck out. Orpington is in a London Borough, is it not? The two grammar schools in Orpington are superselective, so he is not talking about Kent schools and nor are they schools serving Kent children especially.

He talks about not objecting to university selection at 18, but this is not a one off process. Many people defer going at 18 and if you are not successful the first time you can try again. Which is not like the 11+.

When he takes Kent mum to task and talks about her being instead "Oxfordshire Mum", he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. I live in Oxfordshire and there are many good comprehensives which take children from across the whole social spectrum.

[TootingJo]

A funny follow up to all this. I started a blog about Kent education, and wrote a few posts. When Peter Hitchens (journalist, author, been on Question Time) wrote something supporting grammar schools I tweeted a comment.

We ended up having a 2 day long Twitter debate, and then he put my blog post on his Mail Online blog and laid into it...

I don't really mind, he made some good points. But he's a lot scarier than Mumsnetters.

hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/07/a-new-discussion-about-school-selection-.html

[summerends]

secondary modern equivalents in terms of your divisiveness by sport argument ie without the 'extra resources of outside coaching'. I'm not claiming an academic criteria SM, these have the advantage of at least some proactive resourced parents.

They swap being part of a frequently losing school (like many other schools) to being the second class team. Even be worse for individual morale since they can't blame the school.

[BertrandRussell]

"However Bertrand following your line of thinking, individual DCs would swop from losing against the A teams of grammars full of coached DCs to being always relegated to lower teams in the same schools as the coached DCs. I am not sure that the latter is more socially just since the DC is still conscious of their supposed inferiority. "

But they will not always be in the losing school. If you are constantly being told that your school is inferior, you are going to believe and internalise that message.

[BertrandRussell]

"SM equivalent 'are schools that are not favoured by well resourced parents and therefore consist of mainly DCs who are unlikely to access the MC extras."

Oh right. So not secondary modern schools at all!

[summerends]

MummySparkle That's why I think with certain sports like football, netball and running it is actually more school dependent than grammar versus SM.

However Bertrand following your line of thinking, individual DCs would swop from losing against the A teams of grammars full of coached DCs to being always relegated to lower teams in the same schools as the coached DCs. I am not sure that the latter is more socially just since the DC is still conscious of their supposed inferiority.

'SM equivalent 'are schools that are not favoured by well resourced parents and therefore consist of mainly DCs who are unlikely to access the MC extras.

Anyway despite all this quibbling over sport inequality, I do agree that the Kent system is divisive and grammar schools don't always do their best for their pupils either.

[MummySparkle]

I was at an all girls grammar school and on the netball team. We were pants! The SMs had far more coaching than us and we're far better players. At our school anything that wasn't academic was hidden away and not really encouraged

[BertrandRussell]

"what's worse -being regularly beaten or alternatively being excluded from being in the team because of competing with coached DCs"

In a comprehensive system there will be A teams and B teams- and even C teams that will be on a reasonable par with each other .So an opportunity to play in a team for everyone who might want to. And teams able to give each other a decent game. A secondary modern's A team will almost always be be beaten by a grammar's A team. Some people on here have said that their grammar schools don't even play non selective schools!

I didn't say it was the most important argument against selective education, but it is yet another example of how if you are at a secondary modern you are constantly being reminded that both you and your school are second best.

What's a "SM equivalent" school?

[summerends]

Bertrand I certainly would n't question your individual experience (although coloured by a particular stance) but I do question your use of this particular line of reasoning which as I say is the weakest of the arguments you have put forwards against the SM system.
You also still have n't answered my question.
what's worse -being regularly beaten or alternatively being excluded from being in the team because of competing with coached DCs

[TootingJo]

I've been looking into ways to actually do something about this, or try to give Kent parents a say. It's pretty depressing really.

There's a report from the education select committee which asks the government to clarify their position on selective education. The reply is...

'The Government does not support selective education and does not want to see it extended in terms of the number of places offered. The Government’s aim is to improve standards in all schools so that all children have an equal opportunity to develop and fulfil their potential....the Government does not want to see a return to the 11 plus.'

Then the committee's reviews the current Grammar School Ballot system for appealing to change the system. It describes the system as 'unwinnable.'

The current arrangements for grammar school ballots demonstrate that the Government is not prepared to give all local parents a genuine opportunity to express an opinion on the kind of schools they want their children to attend. The present system does not work. It should therefore be withdrawn and replaced with new arrangements.

The Government's reply is... 'Grammar School Ballots. 'The Government does not agree with the conclusion of the Committee but will give consideration to its proposal for a specialised study into the matter.'

So to try to change something the government clearly states it doesn't agree with, the best plan is to wait for a consideration of a study!?