Entrance to St Pauls/ Westminster / Eton

[MGJO]

What is the best way to check if my son has the academic skills to have a chance at getting into these schools? To what extent is a strong result in the entrance exam critical to getting in? Do you have children at these schools, and what feedback do you have on the admissions process and how to maximise the chance of acceptance? My son is in year 4 now.

[Copthallresident]

Sorry not familar with these levels but if the are based on SATs they are not that relevent, especially in an International School where they have lots of children with English as a Foriegn Language (and actually DD1s bright kids on the top table included a Finn who had only arrived three years before with no English but still outclassed most of the reading group I ran). They have uselessly broad boundaries and are all about achievement rather than ability, intellectual curiousity etc. the indy prep schools pressure these kids to get them to the top of the tables but they don't serve any other purpose. The good schools go out of their way to spot ability rather than achievement.

What might help you find DS's level, if not comparative with his class, is doing some verbal and non verbal reasoning, they are tests of ability rather than achievement and good schools include them in the exams. I found NFER best but that was a while ago, the key thing is that the score gives you a percentile of the overall population of his age group in the UK that your son's score has exceeded. Sorry Girls' schools again, but Lady Eleanor Holles, generally regarded as next most selective for girls after St Pauls in West London were saying that they expected that girls who got in would score at higher than the 95th percentile (also the figure for Russell Group Unis and Oxbridge), for Tiffin (state grammar school )it was the 97th. You should do a few practise tests first because within a quite low ceiling they do better with experience (I used to work with Occupational Psychologists, it was Scientifically proved this ceiling was 6-10 tests not that you would know it from all the tutors minting it on repeated tutoring and tests!!)


However as I said in my last post these schools are after more than just cramming, they all have a particular ethos and they know who will thrive there so they test and interview to find a type. I know it is difficult coming from overseas because your school will not say he's a St Paul's boy or you should go for..... but actually coming from abroad also gives him a big advantage, especially at the schools that don't have boarding. I know this sounds trite but you will know when you walk into a school if you are not too obsessed with league tables, results and the status your child being wherever will give you at dinner parties, whether it is right for your DS. I found it hard to trust but DD1 knew and she was right. DD2 had to prove she could succeed where DD1 had, but I felt another less selective school felt right. Guess where DD2 is going for Sixth form. Trust your instinct.

Schools also publish sample papers so that gives you some evidence on which to base a judgement .

Kingston Grammar School is great, don't hear any complaints, happy students and v. impressive Oxbridge, medics entry. Word is it knows how to stimulate and get the best potential from it's intake

[Colleger]

Can I add to the comments on levels. I think this is a London prep thing and senior schools expect a higher level from London kids than those outside because the preps are ridiculously pushy, and let's not forget the external tutoring!

My son tried to enter two London preps this year having come from an unselective prep in the West of England. One said he was an absolute moron and would only get into Stowe. The other said the best he could aim for, academically, was Harrow.

He has just been offered a firm place at Winchester and his computerised results at another school indicated he was very bright and should aim for the most selective schools. I know one boy who, within the classroom, is working two years ahead of DS at the same London prep that said they could do nothing for him. He hasn't got into the schools my son has. So I do think some senior schools, not all sadly, do think outside the box and not merely at exam results.

[Copthallresident]

Colleger I know that my experience is with girls at 11 but DD2s pushy London prep had them all ranked by how they had done in their internal exams, entirely based on achievement. It came as a shock to some parents when the daughters they had tutored and pushed into the top half of the class did not get in to SPGS, LEH, Godolphin but horror of horrors, only got offers from the Highs (which are all excellent schools by normal standards) but 4 girls who had come in the bottom half because they had relaxed parents, or dyslexia, or came from abroad etc. did. The excellent old Head of Surbiton High wrote a good article on it all, trying to inject some sense.

[difficultpickle]

Very sensible article Copthall but I wonder how many parents actually do what she advises?

[Copthallresident]

Bisjo I think that would take Valium in the West London water supply

[MGJO]

OK, three more questions:
To get into eton, westminster, or st pauls, does it matter if your boy is non-religious?
Also, do these schools ask for references beyond the current school for the boy?
Finally, does class matter? Will Eton or Westminster take middle class kids (not scholarship, for normal entry?)?

[Michaelahpurple]

If Westminster won't take middle class "kids", who do you think they will take?

[MGJO]

My question is to what degree there is a social screening element at either school? My perception is that Eton may have , and less so at westminster, and i'd really like to hear from those who have experience on this

[Colleger]

I think there is social screening at these schools unless a child offers something exceptional. I never used to think this was the case but looking I'm now convinced. I would say that this is not the case with the London schools though.

[peteneras]

MGJO, please rest assured as far as modern Eton is concerned, a boy's social background is of little or no concern to the school. I personally know of boys who come from (officially) Britain's most expensive postcode, I said postcode and not postcodes and there are sons and/or relatives of African chiefs, foreign prime minister(s) and even a Sultan's son currently there.

All the above in addition to sons of unemployed asylum seekers, office cleaners, postcodes of London's inner cities, etc. And they say you can't get a 'real life' experience at Eton! I'd argue you can't get a real life experience from a state comprehensive because you don't see a Lord or an Earl or a multi-billionaire there at the state school.

[MGJO]

Except for Gabbitas, can anyone recommend a company, or individual, who is suitable for making a solid assesment of DS and his suitability for these schools? planning a trip to london soon, would like to make the best use of it. thankyou

[Mominatrix]

I love building lego with my son .Anyone like building lego with your son?

[Mominatrix]

Sorry about the above message - I left the computer on this page, and DS1 decided to type in the message - nothing to do with Eton/St. Paul's/Westminster

As you were!

[Gunznroses]

Mominatrix - Aww bless !

[QuintessentialShadows]

Op, if you are overseas and your son is in year 4, how old is he? As you know, children start school at the age of 4 here, so starts secondary at 11+, after year 6, and make their application during the first term in year 6.
When are you moving here?

The reason why I am asking is that we moved to the UK from Norway a year ago, where my son joined Y5, aged 9.
This means, as they start school at 6 in Norway, he jumped from Year 3 to year 5 as a result of the move.

I should add he did reception and Y1 in the uk as he was born here, but had three years starting from scratch.

[peteneras]

"The day we had the rejection letter was one of the best in my life".

I?m afraid you lost me there completely. If not wanting to get into Eton is your main objective and failing to gain entry officially makes it one of the best days of your life and whooping with joy, then I'm really puzzled why you bothered in the first place?

Okay, the in-laws might have insisted you tried but what?s there to stop you, or more precisely your DS to go into the computer and other pretests and put crosses all over it and walk out in two minutes? That way you would have saved yourselves another visit to the school for the interview.

But I?m thrilled for you and your DS (and DD) who are now in the school that you actually want which is all that matters.

[Needmoresleep]

That is a bit harsh. I am sure we are not the only ones who put our DC down for super-selective independents when not absolutely sure that they were right. Choice at this level is as much about the school choosing as you. The selection process then tells you quite a lot more about the school. Schools also have good experience of who will thrive within their culture.

As it turned out DD was not given the choice, but our son was. (not Eton - though in retrospect he might have been a candidate, we had simply assumed we would not be posh enough.) By this point I was happy that he would fit, and therefore happy to leave it to him. He chose the school we had wanted him to go to in the first place. We too were not unhappy that the girls school backed up our instinct that their school was not right for our daughter, even though she has several friends who are all very happy there. I think she would now agree they made the choice.

[Needmoresleep]

Sorry

"They made the RIGHT choice."

[nokissymum]

Islandmama - thank you so much for your post which has really made me laugh and congratulations to your ds!

[dapplegrey]

Islandmama - so you paid the registration fee and put your ds through the stress of the test and interview of a school you didn't want him to go to? What would you have done if he'd been offered a place?

[Colleger]

Islandmama's post is disingenuous. Either she has a very odd marriage and one where mutual respect is absent or she is perturbed that her son wasn't offered a place. I wouldn't have celebrated in such a fashion if I knew my husband would have been upset and I would never have sent my son to the "slaughter". The fact she mentions her son is in top sets is irrelevant to the post but she is trying to excuse why he didn't get in but wanting to convince herself and everyone else that he is bright, and that she didn't want a place anyway. Very odd.

I've had some OE wife's say that they didn't want to send their son's to Eton (after they didn't get in, so went through the motions ) because the school had changed beyond recognition and wasnt the real Eton as it was letting in the likes of our family.

[Copthallresident]

islandmama I totally get your post, and I'm guessing we may have lived on the same or similar island? I appeased the ancestors by at one point sending DDs to a French International School, thankfully said ancestors were appeased after DD1 was knocked out in a Battle of Agincourt incident in the playground and DD2 (and french friends) returned home wet because they were left to pee on the pavement because as reception kids they boarded the bus early and were not allowed back in to the school (and all responsibility for children's welfare ended at the classroom door). They were both out of there in a month and I was therefore spared by relieved DH all mention of Catholic Boarding Schools, actually all boarding schools, and all Catholic Schools, whatever the Benedictine brothers offered to sort out for us. Oundle a great experience for the DCs of quite a few expat friends

[RosamundLehmann]

OP, if you want to find out what your DC may be capable of you can use a great service from the Good Schools Guide who will come out and assess the child through interview and looking at school work.

This really helped us - DCs in state primary and we wanted to know where to aim with secondary. The assessment helped us understand what the child was capable of and gave us confidence to aim high with school applications. The DC in question, our eldest, is now in a very competitive independent day school in central London

[happygardening]

We put DS2 through the interview process for St Pauls although I we didn't really want the place. The man interviewing us (not the DS) told us we were unlikely to get offered a place as we were not at a prep they knew. I was quite chuffed because I didn't want it and lo behold he got offered a place!! We then had a dilemma, as my DS said it would have been so much easier if we hadn't got it and it is a fantastic school but in the end we stuck with plan A and I have never regretted it. Neither have I regretted doing it DS wasn't stressed about it in the slightest, it actually helped us to work out what it was that really mattered about a school and it was an interesting experience (perhaps I need to get out more).