Have your children got into Grammar school without tutoring?

[Seasider]

Hi
Live in Dorset and would like son to go to Poole Grammar, but wider question is, as above, has anyone had a child get into Grammar without paying for a private tutor?

[CaptainNancy]

I think it really depends on the schools you're applying to.
The grammars in my area are the super selective type- they have in excess of 20 applicants per place, and they take

[squishysquashy]

Myself and my brother's got into the grammar school/sister school you are aiming for OP. None of us had any tutoring, extra home support or practice papers. I got top marks (not sure about my brothers). This was in the 90's. I remember my friend telling me afterwards she had a book of practice papers I was agog had not even heard of the concept!

[nogoodusernamesleft]

I'm in Dorset too, and DS2 is going to sit the test for Poole Grammar next year (just started Year 6). I'm not arranging a tutor for him, as my feeling is that if he's clever enough to get in he will. I will get him a few practice papers prior to the test just so he knows what to expect, but my gut feeling is that I would hate for him to struggle having scraped through the test.

We're lucky though in that we have a good comp for him to go to if he doesn't get in which is where DS1 is going next September, so I'm not TOO worried!

[snazaroo]

I'm in Dorset but we don't have grammars in our bit :-)

[confidence]

@ breadandbutterfly -

Of her group of 4 friends who tried for grammar school, the 2 who had exclusively paid tutors both failed. My dd, and her friend who had parental assistance as well as a tutor, both passed. In my (v limited) experience, therefore, tutors aren't as good as a motivated parent - they just don't care as much and I would guess are rather less efficient (as well as more expensive) because they don't know your dc as well as you do, so can't pitch it as accurately as you can.

This is very interesting, and interesting as well to see quite a few parents here report their kids passing without private tutoring, but always with some degree of parental tutoring (albeit sometimes minimal).

I very much agree with the above. DC had a private tutor for two terms as we were new to the area, didn't know the ropes and wanted to be safe. But to be honest, apart from pointing out some basic stuff in the first few lessons I was unaware of, she was pretty useless. I could see it not really going anywhere and stepped in to support him myself, producing my own materials and carefully monitoring his progress, timing etc. In the end he sailed through.

In fact I find the above to be true generally of educating kids. The support that a reasonably educated and aware parent can give is often massively more effective than that of a much more trained specialist. There's more dedication behind it, it can be far more customised and can work flexibly around the child's life.

[Seasider]

Thanks for all these comments. It's me and the books and online support with DS, totally agree that practice is key, esp with NVR and parts of the Maths Curriculum.

[TheWomanOnTheBus]

MillyR: "People on MN will always bring out this myth that the relatively less academic child only got into grammar school because they were tutored and will struggle once they are there. "

I actually read this in the FAQs of a grammar school (sorry, can't remember which) where they said people shouldn't tutor for just this reason and a place is then taken from someone else who wasn't tutured, failed, and may well have thrived.

If I remember which or find it I will post it.

[Jinx1906]

That is exactly what the admissions authority and primary schools here in Bexley are preaching. But most people who are keen for their kids to go to GS are ignoring this advice.

[WynkenBlynkenandNod]

Am in Dorset and my DD's state school (just outside Poole ) has just lost 24 to Parkstone and Poole. No idea how many were tutored, everyone was very tight lipped about it. The only two I know had tutoring failed to get in. What you will find though is people put their children in for the Bournemouth Grammar tests as they are the year before and use them as a practice run. Think this might be stopping soon as age of entry changing but some of this year's Poole Grammar entrants will have definitely sat the Bournemouth one last year so will be more familiar with the testing conditions. Not sure about the boys but the girls have their score adjusted for age so those born Sept - Dec have to score higher ( or they did, no idea if that applies for this year).

And a lot go privately with a view to getting them into the Grammar for secondary. I think this is reflected in the lack of 13+ Independent Schools with anywhere near affordable fees. Someone I was speaking to was using Canford as a back up in case her DD didn't get in (she didn't).

I think you will be fine doing it yourself as long as you can get your head around the different types of questions and strategies for the types of questions. If you're in any doubt, some of the local tutors do group sessions which are about half the price and might be worth looking to see if you could stretch to a couple just to give a bit of a boost on the strategy front given that he will be up against children who have been heavily tutored for it.

[mrsrat]

I went to an open day for Pates last night where approx 1200 children are applying for 120 places. Every prospective parent I spoke to had a tutor ( we don't) and I really started to panic until all of the children we spoke to that were already at the school said that they had practiced before hand but none had had any formal tutoring. I'm not sure if because competition is now deemed to be greater due to some parents opting to try the grammar rather than private route. It is however all very scary but my view is they can only do their best and so long as they remain calm on the day then she stands a reasonable chance.

[breadandbutterfly]

Tutors aren't magic - really. They can't do anything that a parent with an hour or two squeezed in before making dinner or after netball or whatever can do. No fees, no commuting time, quality one-to-one time with your child.

No point in getting a tutor unless you really work ridiculously long hours and/or have money to burn, and/or really really struggle with basic numeracy/literacy yourself (in which case, sadly, unless genetics has been very kind to your dc, they are probably not a natural grammar school candidate either).

[Theas18]

Hmm on the fence here. super selective grammars in my area. Kids did have a tutor simply because the state sector teaches them to be "exam ready " for SATS at the end of year 6 not the start of year 6 when the 11+ exams are. Timing issues, how to interpret questions etc hadn't even been mentioned (state schools here are pretty anti 11+ and aren't allowed to promote it). Exam skills are vital and how ever bright your child is the simple things like "if it's taking you ages to do move on and go back to it" might not even occur to them.
Also our 11+ is not released as past papers ever, it is always different to the papers they've practised, and they need to be flexible and not phased by that.

DH teaches primary and we are both intelligent and articulate (and yes we've taken enough exams in our time to know how they work) but a tutor for a few months just gave them great confidence to approach the exam well.

BTW they also did some fun stuff and looked at areas where they lacked confidence. DS had some 1 to 1 art lessons (no we'd never have thought about that) with his tutor and it hugely boosted his confidence in that area.

[teacherwith2kids]

Mrsrat, If it makes you feel any better, I have another of the 1200+ (probably many, many more once you consider those who are sitting the test elsewhere but first choice would be Pates) who hasn't been near a tutor.....

[mrsrat]

teacherwith2kids thank you. I have however now signed up with chalkboard and 11+diy which I have been able to do for just a month and DD loves them. I was so impressed with Pates and it is definitely our first choice

[spanieleyes]

We found out on a Friday at the beginning of December that we were moving across the country with an eldest son who had just started year 7. I phoned the local schools on the Monday to check on any vacancies only to discover that the area was a grammar one and that the Grammar School was holding an 11+ exam the following day! We drove 280 miles that afternoon and found a hotel to stay in, he sat both verbal and non verbal tests on Tuesday and passed! We moved at Christmas and he started in January. I'm not sure which was more stressful, that or the youngest son who sat the 11+ two years later with a couple of practice papers under his belt but no tuition either ( and he passed too-I just happen to have 2 pretty bright sons)

[bkgirl]

Sadly not all primary school teachers are worth much. My son's teacher spent time browsing the internet looking at handbags etc, chatting to her teenage daughter on a mobile and taking time off for everything under the son. Compare it to my daughters new school (I moved her), she comes out everyday happy, confident and having learnt so much....the school churns out A's. Her teacher and lots of others there are absolutely fantastic - dedicated, hard working and fun!

Therefore, ask is your child getting properly educated at their school or is the teacher just passing the time of day. Then ask yourself do they need tutored - and believe me, an hour a week is NOTHING compared with being taught 9am to 3pm.

[sue52]

I tutored DD1 myself with the help of Bond and Letts books. I employed a tutor for DD2 as I was coping with elderly parents, a very ill DH and running a business at the time and I didn't want the extra pressure for her or me. They both passed (west kent girls grammar). If you have the time and inclination it is perfectly possible to do it yourself, sometimes life gets in the way.

[mrsrat]

I'll let you know on Saturday morning. DD took Gloucestershire 11+ last Saturday and results out by email tomorrow from midnight. We couldn't afford a tutor but did do extra work together. Everything is crossed

[gazzalw]

We did work with our DS as we couldn't afford a tutor and reckoned that as we are graduates we should be capable of doing the job ourselves. DS has now passed 11+ for two super-selectives and can tell you that he is not by any means a particularly studious child. We got very frustrated with him as half the time he appeared not to be paying attention and he certainly wasn't scoring even 80% in all the tests we did with him.
So it is very possible, but I am beginning to think it does depend to some extent on natural abilities of the child. One of DS's classmates who has only ever be an average (on middle table) in the class also passed, but she was heavily tutored by maths and English tutors for the whole of Year 5.
It's all a bit of a lottery and you are to some degree damned if you do and damned if you don't....

[mrsrat]

Same here gazzalw. I am a graduate and also worked as a teacher many moons ago, but it didnt work for us. She literally scraped passes for the 3 girls grammars and was rejected outright fo Pates. She always did brilliantly in her mock test and on line tests. The problem is that a tiny number of points are involved in the process.
At one school she scored 225 / 250 ( a really good score in my opinion ) and was ranked 221 ( there are only 120 places up for grabs.) Another student scored 230 and was ranked 133. I am kicking myself now that maybe a tutor for a few lessons may have made the difference as it may have given her the tools to work out the answers. Our local comp is really really really bad. Oviously my daughter doesnt have a clue and thinks she still stands a chance as there could be a space come March but what a wait !

[Clareyst]

Hi mrsrat - please don't feel bad about not having tutored your daughter. A huge majority of parents will have put all of the girls' grammars plus Pates on their forms, so a lot of people will be on all 4 lists initially. As she passed the test there is a very very good chance she will end up with a place come March at one of the grammars. And in the unlikely event that she doesn't, you have a very strong case for appeal, given that she has passed the test for 3 of the schools.

Just out of curiousity, where is the really really really awful comp?! (Just being nosey!)

[VivaLeBeaver]

Dd has just passed. We Goya practice papers and she did the odd one before the summer holidays. Was acing the nor but struggled to understand what needed doing with vr. Wouldn't listen to me and got upset so we got a tutor in, though only for about six sessions. He didn't do anything I couldn't do but dd would listen to him where she won't listen to me.

I think if your child is prepared to work calmly with some help from you and you understand the papers then You don't need a tutor.

[VivaLeBeaver]

Meant to add that over the summer holidays she did 30 mins of practicing everyday and I think this is what helped the most. 30 mins isn't long when it's in the holidays and you've got all day.

[Wormshuffler]

Well done viva, another proud mummy here who has got both dc's into grammar without a private tutor. Ds did amazingly and his Score beat those of his friends who had private tutors.
Mrsrat a system where your child can score so highly yet still be unable to gain a place is fundamentaly wrong. I have heard stories about people getting specifically trained for the 11 plus for 4 years, which amounts to no less than buying a seat at grammar. Fingers crossed for your dd come march.