Withdrawing from RE lessons in Secondary

[astranova]

At the moment by DD gets 1 x 50 minute period of RE per week. I've been looking carefully at the timetable for the week and really wish she could do either more Art (currently 2 x 50 minute lessons a week), Music ( 2 x 50 minute lessons) or Drama (1 x 50 minute lesson a week).

I know some people think 'it's only 50 minutes' and it's not all about religious worship but I honestly think she's aware enough about all the main religions having celebrated Diwali, visited Sikh temples and Mosques and doing all the usual Christian stuff around Easter and Christmas during her 7 years at primary. We've instilled non-religious values of personal morality, fairness, tolerance into her from a young age and she's clued up about issues such as sectarianism and religious bigotry.

I don't mind at all her being in a church for the Christmas and Easter end of term celebrations and have never withdrawn her from these during Primary. However, now we are in secondary I really think she would be better served having a lesson in Politics or Economics (unfortunately not on offer) but failing that she could practise her cello or piano or just do something else!

Has anyone else had any luck in withdrawing their child from RE lessons in a non-denominational secondary (as I believe we are entitled to?).

[RhodaBull]

Religion is a fascinating subject - probably even more interesting if you are a detached observer. And to echo others, the curriculum today covers moral and ethical topics which are relevant to all. Dd enjoys RS very much and we are not religious people at all.

I simply don't understand being allowed to opt out of certain subjects. There is a Muslim girl in dd's year (well, there are many Muslim girls, but this girl is particularly devout) who is excused from RS, PE and Art . Art! Surely the more religious the person, the more valuable it is for them to learn about other religions and other viewpoints.

[Im0gen]

IME Its very rarely the religious families who wish to prevent their children from hearing about other world views . Unsurprising really as they live in a secular society . Its nearly always the militant aethists who want to control their children's beliefs.

Most moderate aetheists are very happy for their children to debate religious and philosophical issues with their peers . As we have seen on this thread, many choose to study N5 or higher RMPS.

People really should study the curriculum before righting it off .

[LunaLoveg00d]

We are a non-religious household too and my child enjoys RME lessons, he's in S2. They have been looking at philosophy and ethics as well as world religions and have been debating things like gun control and the death penalty. He's learning how to structure an argument, how to debate a point which he might not personally agree with, and how to think properly!

There is no religious observance at school - or very little. They have the chaplain from the local Church of Scotland come to talk to them sometimes but it's all very inclusive stuff about being kind and taking responsibility for yourself, not a Christian hard sell. They don't go to church, ever.

I have the same issues with other subjects like Art and Music - my child is getting 2 x 50 minutes of music this year and he LOATHES it, he is very un-musical and can't carry a tune in a bucket. He is counting the weeks until he can drop music forever and never have to struggle through being asked to perform or compose again. Unfortunately school just doesn't have the ability to accommodate everyone's preferences in terms of timetables at the S1/S2 level.

[astranova]

Thanks for all your thoughts. Can I just stress to Im0gen that I am not averse to my children 'hearing about other world views'. My child goes to a large secondary school and has friends with a wide variety of faiths and beliefs and, as I said, has a general understanding of many different belief systems. All the areas that seem to be encompassed within RE (that's what it's called on my S1 child's timetable) that tick key components of the CfE's four capacities are valid including developing knowledge and understanding of the world, respect for others etc.

I just wanted to know if anyone had had experience of withdrawing their child, if it was a 'thing' that actually happened. I am not about to turn my child into a 'special snowflake' that sits in the library and feels left out just to make a point about my 'militant' atheism .

Maybe I would personally be more comfortable if it was described as "Community/World Studies'. The discussion of gun control and the death penalty is a great subject for children to debate upon and I guess you couldn't discuss that without examining religion and the various hypocrisies and inconsistencies of thought that can sometimes be exposed. Ditto issues of equality and the impact on women of various belief systems.

Having just looked at the course outlines from my school it would appear that Religion comes under the Social Sciences umbrella along with Geography, History and Modern Studies. I bristle somewhat that Religious Studies encompasses 'Charity Projects and Tasks'- why should that be within the study of Religion rather than the 'Community, values and citizenship' of Modern Studies? I guess it's the co-opting of 'good works' as a religious thing that I'm uncomfortable with.

Am going to look into how RE features in the later life of the school - I'm only just starting to get my head around the new Nat4,5s, Highers etc. Children don't HAVE to take RE as a subject choice when they come to choosing their 6?7?8? subjects do they?

[ttlshiwwya]

Worth asking about the alternatives if you opt out. I opted out for my DS2 for both instruction and observance in primary and secondary. In secondary during RMPS instruction he was offered other subjects instead. These were limited by whatever was going on at the same time in his year group so he did more social subjects but could have done maths or French. My also very atheist DD is studying RMPS for national 5 and loving it - it's more a social science about people's beliefs. I would have opted out for. my DS1 but he considered the alternatives less of a skive so was happy to remain opted in and just bunked off the church visits twice a year along with half the school.

[WankersHacksandThieves]

Children don't HAVE to take RE as a subject choice when they come to choosing their 6?7?8? subjects do they?

No, they will however be timetabled for a period of Core RME until end S4 for further depending on the school.

[PberryT]

If you want to withdraw then try to do it.

BUT you will be laughed out of the school for asking for extra periods of art, music or drama.

[astranova]

Yeah I'd gathered that by now PberryT but thanks for reiterating.

[Im0gen]

I just wanted to know if anyone had had experience of withdrawing their child, if it was a 'thing' that actually happened. I am not about to turn my child into a 'special snowflake' that sits in the library and feels left out just to make a point about my 'militant' atheism

That's good to know . Because it's really not fun for the children. I have no personal experience of this in secondary. But in our primary there was one family who removed their child from from religious observance. So during school assemblies this poor kid had to sit behind a curtain alone while everyone else took part in the Harvest /Christmas / Easter /Leavers assembly .

I'm sure their parents were relieved to know that they were protected from the evils of the nativity play , didn't have to be inn keeper no 2 or sheep no 5, dress up as a daffodil and dance a spring dance , listen to the local CoS minister talk about homeless people or children in Syria and hear the P7 leavers song .

Meanwhile all the Muslim , Hindu and Jewish children joined in with everyone else. And were angels / daffodils / donkeys .

I'm pleased to hear that your child won't be the one behind the curtain. Or in the library while their class discuss Janeism or gun control.

[astranova]

Yes it didn't bother me at all during primary because it was all dressing up, drama, stories and community. Secondary is another matter but it sounds like they've shoe-horned enough wider content under the umbrella of 'religion' for it to be worth its 50 minutes in my book

[ttlshiwwya]

Personal experience of having a child who opted out in both primary or secondary. He was never left behind the curtain. There were usually other children opting out and he always had other activities some of them really worthwhile. However amount of religious observance in my DCs primary school was minimal - Easter and Christmas not Leavers or other assemblies so he didn't miss out on the drama, dressing up etc. I don't feel he's much less knowledgeable about others beliefs than his elder brother who opted in but didn't study RMPS as an option. He's well read and had a mixture of friends with different religions.

[ALongTimeComing]

Charity projects come under RE because whilst the timetable may say RE it's actually RME and the Moral part of it is important too. Have a look at the RME CFE experiences and outcomes.

[astranova]

Glad your child was never 'left behind the curtain' ttlshwiwya Like your child, my DD is well read, we discuss the news and current affairs; issues like equality and diversity, and she has friends who are from Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Catholic and atheist families. PSE seems to cover a fair amount of 'moral' and sexual education. One of her S1 classes was involved in the Samaritan's Shoebox and again, that gave us an opportunity to discuss things like proselytising and the idea of charity 'with strings'.

[Groovee]

Dd says the only child who was withdrawn from RME was Jehovahs Witness.

The school do no religious observance at all. They do a Christmas sing along of chart music and the teachers do a dance/panto or something like that.

Dh has family who are JW and they were removed but as they attended a large school with a large JW community one of the elders came in to do a class with them. So although they were withdrawn from RME they had their own religion who come instead.

[RETeacher101]

I guess it's the co-opting of 'good works' as a religious thing that I'm uncomfortable with
I think you are assuming "charity" comes under the "R" part only and not the "M" part. If I were teaching about charity I would use examples from religious and non-religious groups.

Can I say the replies on this thread are lovely and positive and I will share this with some colleagues Nice to read before facing another Monday

[starving]

My dd also studied other topics such as capital punishment, abortion and other "moral" dilemmas in her classes. Not just religious stuff.