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Withdrawing from RE lessons in Secondary

66 replies

astranova · 19/11/2016 17:25

At the moment by DD gets 1 x 50 minute period of RE per week. I've been looking carefully at the timetable for the week and really wish she could do either more Art (currently 2 x 50 minute lessons a week), Music ( 2 x 50 minute lessons) or Drama (1 x 50 minute lesson a week).

I know some people think 'it's only 50 minutes' and it's not all about religious worship but I honestly think she's aware enough about all the main religions having celebrated Diwali, visited Sikh temples and Mosques and doing all the usual Christian stuff around Easter and Christmas during her 7 years at primary. We've instilled non-religious values of personal morality, fairness, tolerance into her from a young age and she's clued up about issues such as sectarianism and religious bigotry.

I don't mind at all her being in a church for the Christmas and Easter end of term celebrations and have never withdrawn her from these during Primary. However, now we are in secondary I really think she would be better served having a lesson in Politics or Economics (unfortunately not on offer) but failing that she could practise her cello or piano or just do something else!

Has anyone else had any luck in withdrawing their child from RE lessons in a non-denominational secondary (as I believe we are entitled to?).

OP posts:
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WankersHacksandThieves · 19/11/2016 20:42

Brillo My atheist DS2 is planning to crash Higher it next year. :)

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Im0gen · 19/11/2016 20:44

How exactly do you think that a broad general education to 16 would work if first year pupils were allowed to drop out of random subjects that their parents didn't like and do something of their choice ?

So if your parents think maths or science is rubbish you could do cake decorating instead ?

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MrsJayy · 19/11/2016 20:47

My Dd really enjoyed RME at high school said it was really interesting even if you with drew your Dd she wouldn't get another subject it's timetabled in till 4th year at least although our school did it up to ,5th

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Im0gen · 19/11/2016 20:50

Here's the BBC bite size page on the national 5 RMPS

www.bbc.co.uk/education/subjects/z2dmyrd

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MrsJayy · 19/11/2016 20:50

Dd has istandard grade RME and always got the school prize and we are not One bit a religious family

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SuperPug · 19/11/2016 20:51

Thank you Smile, I'm aware of that. I don't teach in Scotland and should have made that clear. The point being made was that we don't just look at Philosophy and Ethics, there are some pretty good reasons to look at the study of religion as well.
I don't see why I cannot comment on this, as a general issue, regardless of where I teach? Definitely an issue in London as well in terms of compulsory R.E.

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prettybird · 19/11/2016 20:51

Did a bit of googling and found this: http://www.lawandreligionuk.com/2016/11/07/scottish-government-to-re-examine-obligatory-collective-worship-in-schools/

Seems that we are on the wrong side of the law (according to the UN) not allowing 16-18 year olds to withdraw themselves (given that they can otherwise sign all their own consent forms so that I no longer know what ds is doing Confused) and require parents to withdraw them Hmm.

But on the other hand, they also mention (in an earlier post) that the guidance from the Scottish Government is that "quiet reflection" is sufficient, if that is more appropriate for the composition of the school.

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WankersHacksandThieves · 19/11/2016 21:00

Super of course you can comment on it and have a view, but I don't think the OPs question applies outside Scotland as I don't think you have the option to withdraw in the same way? Happy to be corrected though.

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SuperPug · 19/11/2016 21:17

You're right, RE is a legal requirement. You can withdraw your child from worship. However , some parents still push to be withdrawn from lessons and it is not included in the EBac, which caused some controversy.
It's interesting to see how it's viewed outside England as TES tends to mostly focus on issues in England, which is a shame.

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SuperPug · 19/11/2016 21:19

Sorry, EBACC- not as one of the set compulsory subjects, could be included as an option.

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prettybird · 19/11/2016 21:26

Rereading the OP, I think you have more chance of withdrawing her from the Christmas and Easter services or rather, no one even noticing whether or not she goes than of withdrawing her from RME, as that is a compulsory part of the BGE (Broad General Education, in case you don't know the acronym), which lasts from S1 to S3.

And even less chance of her getting an "extra" class of Art, Music or Drama.

Learning about Diwali, Eid, Easter and other religious festivals at primary school is not that same as learning to understand the different religions and different moral standpoints at secondary.

Even in S4, they still have one period a week of core RME - and it would appear that some (most? but not at ds') schools continue that into S5.

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WankersHacksandThieves · 19/11/2016 21:39

No, you can legitimately withdraw from RME regardless of BGE. (Plenty of schools only pay lip service to BGE anyway). However the school has no obligation to provide you with an alternative. I'm not sure many school have teachers with free periods available to give free 121 lessons in the arts at the request of parents. Believe me if I thought the school was offering such alternatives, I'd have been at the front of the queue :o However, having said that, my atheist children have got a lot out of the RME lessons in the main.

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tabulahrasa · 19/11/2016 22:03

RME tends to be timetabled by year group, so depending on the size of the school they may all be in RME at the same time.

If there was even an art, music or drama class for her year timetables at the same time, I'm really not sure what the benefit of spending one lesson with a different class would actually be? There's every chance she'd just get the same lesson she had with her own class again.

The most likely outcome is that she'll have to go sit in the library or somewhere similar.

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prettybird · 19/11/2016 22:04

Interestingly - and confusingly Confused - the letter of guidance from Education Scotland (linked to earlier) talked about the right to withdraw from RME in Catholic schools, but in the case of non-denom schools just talks about it being a statutory obligation and hod it fits in with CfE. No clause about the right to withdraw Confused

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WankersHacksandThieves · 19/11/2016 22:09

www.gov.scot/Resource/Doc/149160/0039649.pdf

  1. For those parents who are unable to give their acceptance there is a statutory right to withdraw their children from religious education and a parallel right to withdraw their children from religious observance. These rights should always be made known to parents and their wishes respected.
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WankersHacksandThieves · 19/11/2016 22:13

Various links and template letters here for anyone interested:

www.thinkhumanism.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=2275

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prettybird · 19/11/2016 22:15

That guidance is 20 years older than the more recent letter of guidance, which specifically says it replaces that one. As I say - it is confusing!

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WankersHacksandThieves · 19/11/2016 22:18

Can't say I've kept up with it tbh. It no longer has any impact on us as DSs been withdrawn from Observance for many years and none of us have an issue with RME/RMPS. I used a template fromthe National Secular Society's page.

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prettybird · 19/11/2016 22:20

Link again http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/images/rmerercletter_tcm4-650439.pdf - Clause 1 (the introduction) says it replaces that guidance of 6/91, which was the letter you linked to.

Pity the poor teachers who have to read and act on all these letters of guidance Shock. I suspect there are further management circulars from the local authorities providing the guidance about how to withdraw from RME within their respective areas.

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WankersHacksandThieves · 19/11/2016 22:24

I don't think the local authorities will have any guidance on how to withdraw as I don't think any of them make parents aware that they have the option - can't say I've ever seen anything but then I've not had a need to look. It would clearly be easier for them to just carry on doing what they do and having everyone attend. Probably depends on how religious the Head teacher is,

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WankersHacksandThieves · 19/11/2016 22:26

Our school arranged an S1 bonding day - they gave us the address of the centre which was a religious based location. Ds2 went along and was basically told by the centre's organisers to pray during his lunch break. Neither he nor I was very happy about it.

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WankersHacksandThieves · 19/11/2016 22:28

Oops pressed too soon. I complained and was told that as I'd been told the location of the day I should have been aware that there may be a religious element to the day....Hmm

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tabulahrasa · 19/11/2016 22:32

"Probably depends on how religious the Head teacher is,"

Why would that make any difference? it's comparative religion not instruction.

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WankersHacksandThieves · 19/11/2016 22:44

tabula It shouldn't make any difference, but ime it does make a difference to the Observation element. Don't think it does to the Education element.

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ALongTimeComing · 20/11/2016 09:39

Ask for topics and ideas the school cover as it may actually be things you'll consider worthwhile. Lots of schools cover things like abortion, woman's issues, organ donation, environmental stuff as they get through the school. Can't see what the issue is there.

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