He doesn't pay attention unless I shout

[Desperadoo]

Please be kind.
I'm already feeling volatile about this and loathe myself for the way I'm behaving.

DH doesn't listen to me unless I'm shouting at him. He literally pays no attention. He doesn't remember conversations we've had, says "ok" to my requests but doesn't follow through or just blatantly ignores me.

There was a situation last week whereby he had asked me to arrange something for him. I did it, but he criticised the way I'd done it. I tried explaining that he hadn't communicated specifically what he needed from me, but he couldn't grasp what I was saying at all and I ended up shouting to get him to listen. I feel invisible unless I'm shouting.

I asked him specifically and calmly to stop lunging the children at me when they were playing "flying" on the sofa. I had a pen in my hand and was trying to write a shopping list. The pen almost poked DC in the eye so I requested he stop. He then did it again and the pen poked DC in the eye. I shouted angrily at him and found myself repeating "why do I need to shout to be listened to?!"

Then I've specifically asked him to take DCs out on a Sunday morning for an hour or 2 so that I can clean the house. I'm not asking him to do any cleaning, just take them out and I will do it. He would usually take them swimming at this time pre lockdown so it's when I get the cleaning done. I don't mind doing it provided I have the space to.We've had several conversations around this, reminders etc. He always nods away. We are in a bubble with his Mother, so he has somewhere to take them even if the weather is bad.
Yesterday, after cleaning upstairs, I came downstairs and the house was a tip, I asked him to tidy up so I could clean assuming he would be taking DCs out as usual (they are very small so cause more mess as I'm cleaning and it becomes an impossible task, hence him needing to take them out). I went for a shower instead believing he was tidying and getting them ready to leave the house, came back downstairs and the house was even more of a tip and he proclaimed "we're not going out today."

I found myself reminding him of the copious amount of conversations we've had around this and he glazed over as if they'd never happened. He then said that he would clean and watch DCs at the same time, no big deal. Completely missing the point that Sunday mornings are my time to get a bit of space and quiet to do a few jobs. I even had to use the analogy of me keeping DCs away from his office so that he can work during the week and that I needed the same from him on a Sunday morning for 2 hours.

He just came at me with counter arguments. I lost my temper and shouted in his face. I felt like my head was going to explode as he failed to listen to anything I was saying despite all the conversations we've had around this. I ended up crying and going out for 4 hours on my own to calm down. I've been up most of the night feeling ashamed of myself for losing my temper so much recently. On the other hand, this man just does not take in anything I'm saying unless I'm shouting. This isn't who I want to be.

In general life, he appears to need a lot of sensory stimulation. He's extremely loud himself, always has big bright lights on, loud music, makes big movements. I'm starting to wonder if small sounds, calm requests just have no impact on him, like he just can't hear them. I'm starting to wonder if he has a sensory problem? He would also do what I would describe as 'stimming' so I believe there could be a problem.

I've found that the only way I can avoid getting so angry with him is complete emotional distance from him and me treating him as I would an employee, dishing out regular black and white instructions and sharing the DCs in seperate time slots where we're not around each other. This isn't the way I want to live at all.

His parents tell me that he's never been much of a communicator. I feel I'm communicating very clearly but still not getting my needs met. I'm worried that I'm losing my mind sometimes. How do I relate to and navigate life with someone who follows their own unspoken agenda without much thought for much else?

[Desperadoo]

I think MIL also has PDA.
Does it often run in families?

I first recognised this in her before I noticed it in DH, when she nipped to the shops 10 minutes before she was due to collect my DC from school and left her waiting for her. I got a phone call from the school. I then discovered where MIL had been as she had been seen in the supermarket by a friend.
The same week I watched her start cleaning her kitchen just as we were leaving to go out for a family meal.

I'd just started working with a family where a parent had been diagnosed as having PDA. It was a like a light-bulb moment.

[TooManyMonkees]

No real sense of time. Or commitments in relation to time is my experience. They can only do things when they want to, if at all. Otherwise it’s struggle arguments and bad moods. Its very hard to explain but makes life so unmanageable. Can your DH hold down a job?

Anyway, as you say he’s an adult, and you can’t force him to look into the issue, though not sure what a diagnosis would achieve. I don’t think it would save your relationship and PDA not really treatable with drugs etc, as far as I’m aware. You just have to accept this is who he is. As individuals I am sure they have their good points, and can be good company when on form. But I would say very very difficult to live with.

[TooManyMonkees]

Sorry OP, I misread - I see you did say you had long given up on trying to work with him, trying to get him to seek help or a diagnosis. So clearly you won’t get any further with this. It sounds like you’ve tried. What else can you do? It’s hard to see.

[Regularsizedrudy]

“sensory problems” lol no, he’s just a dick. He doesn’t listen to you because he doesn’t need to while you run around like a blue arsed fly doing everything

[BillMasen]

@AnneLovesGilbert

You need to split up. Screaming around what you describe as very young children isn’t acceptable. Whatever else is going on, feeling bad isn’t stopping you from shouting all the time.

There’s a thread running today about a man wanting his wife to collect him from hospital and shouted at her when she refused. The consensus is he doesn’t deserve her help because he shouted. It’s not different because you’re a woman or that he’s being annoying and not doing what you tell him. Between you you’ve created an utterly toxic environment in which your poor children are living and you both have to take responsibility for that. If you want to work on the relationship then do, but not while living under the same roof and exposing children to this level of constant shouty conflict.

This, but I predict as I read the thread you’ll have it explained to you why you’re wrong an “it’s different”

[Oblomov21]

Hosanna , you once again have totally totally misunderstood. I don't regret my posts content at all. I'm glad my posts are here.
I just wish I hadn't tried to help.

Really really pleased at the direction of the thread. That PDA is at least being discussed.

[HosannainExcelSheets]

@Oblomov21 why be pleased? The OP already said she's through with trying to work out why he behaves the way he does. Maybe he's a dick, maybe he has BPD, ADHD, ASD, PDA, narcissistic personality disorder... Who cares?

He has no regard for her and has refused offers to help or to address the issues. It really doesn't matter what the cause is. You can discuss armchair diagnoses forever, but none of them would justify staying in a relationship where adult partners shout and ignore each other, on front of their children.

[picklemewalnuts]

Oblamov so frustrating.

[Desperadoo]

Those in the know about PDA.
How can you ever form a healthy relationship with someone who has this condition?
Obviously if we separate, I'm still going to need to deal with him. I can't find any information whatsoever. I understand how to manage a child with this condition, but adult relationships?

[OutComeTheWolves]

I'm going to sit down and read this more thoroughly when I've got a minute, but my dh is exactly like this down to the loud noises/big movements etc.

I've always put it down to the fact that his family is extremely dramatic about every single fucking thing, so he just doesn't hear anything unless there's tears, wailing and hysterics. This is not my personality type at all so I spend a lot of the time feeling unheard. More recently I've started feeling that he doesn't actually know me because he hears very little of what I actually say.

He also does a very frustrating thing of second guessing me all the time. So I could say I'm really irritated because of A,B and C and he'll say I think it's actually because of X,Y and Z - why can women not just say what the problem is? Why do you make us guess etc etc . Actually you nob I did, you just think you know better!!

I'm on a roll now - he also always asks me what I want for Christmas, then when I tell him, he'll say no I'm not getting you that, I'll get you something nicer then gets me a very generic, if slightly more expensive, present for a woman as if he googled most popular present for wife this year. I'm not shy, if I wanted a Micheal Kors watch or a Barbour coat or whatever I'd have asked.

[HosannainExcelSheets]

If he genuinely has PDA, you can't form a normal adult relationship with him. He'd also be a completely unsafe parent as he would not be able to deal with the constant demands of parenting that can't be ignored or put off at whim. The "pathological" part of the diagnosis means that the person is not capable of meeting demands to such an extent that they cannot function in normal life.

If you think this is a real possibility, rather than him just being a bit difficult and fed up of you shouting at him, then he won't be able to change without intensive support and intervention from medical and support workers. You can't change PDA. It's an extremely serious, unusual, and highly controversial subset of autism that is not actually recognised as a diagnosis in the UK under DSM 11 criteria. That's why it's nigh on impossible to find any information.

I strongly suggest that you do not try to have a relationship with him. Look up parallel parenting, investigate supervised contact. If he truly has PDA and isn't just an arsehole, then that's the future relationship you're looking at with him. Cooperation isn't a realistic aim, nor is joint goal setting, or genuine co-parenting.

For what it's worth, I think you should stop trying to diagnose him, or fix him, and just look at the reality of your situation. You can't have a constructive relationship with him for whatever reasons, probably contributed by both of you. Accept that you will need to interact primarily to exchange children and to get divorced, then stop any unnecessary interaction between you both.

[BiddyPop]

Would it help to write things down rather than shouting? As some people are more visual communicators, especially if there are sensory issues.

[BiddyPop]

Sorry, I'd responded to the op before reading the rest of the thread. My bad.

[FuckingFabulous]

@Desperadoo

Can I make a plea to MN?
Please don't delete this thread.
I've had threads before around DH and MIL potentially being autistic and they get wiped off when it's reported by those who take offence.

This thread is the only support I have at the moment and I'm feeling extremely low. Removing it would be more harmful to me right now than anyone who takes offence.

I've also experienced this sort of thing. I've got a post at the moment that I've worried about being removed because of people's shockingly ignorant attitude toward adults with additional needs, or the lack of empathy toward their romantic partners.

It's really hard sometimes to find support. People tend to think that others lives and experiences have to be the same as theirs, and that if it's not, there's some inherent lack of backbone or laziness in the OP because they've failed to tackle the situation and find a solution.

[Desperadoo]

Mine second guesses me too @outcomethewolves some would call it gas lighting.

Mine also tries to finish my sentences as he's too impulsive to listen to me. He always finishes them wrongly too, which emphasises even more why I feel so invisible.

[HosannainExcelSheets]

www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/double-empathy

I hope you'll find reading about the double empathy problem helpful and enlightening. It's not one sided.

As an autistic person you perpetually live in a world where people misinterpret you, don't communicate in a way that's easily accessible and perpetually demand that you change the fundamental way you interact with the world to make their life easier. Equally, the other person could learn how to communicate more like an autistic person...

And these threads are a huge problem as many people pointed out already, because they equate awful, sometimes abusive, behaviour with autism in someone often with no such diagnosis.

[Desperadoo]

So interesting to read @hosannainexcelsheets
But also disheartening.

[Chnce]

Oblamov I thought you were clearly trying to be helpful in your post and give you kudos for that . Makes me think of that expression ' no good deed goes unpunished' [sigh].

Hope OP finds a way to improve her situation; feeling invisible is not a good way to live .

[picklemewalnuts]

I agree with some of what you say, Hosanna. As a teacher, I attempted to make my communication clear as I felt that the adjustments necessary for children with autism are also very helpful to everyone else- including those not diagnosed.

Where this falls apart somewhat in relationships is where one partner does not perceive there is a problem when the other person tells them there is. Mutual adjustment is great. Refusing to recognise a problem you are being told about is not.

My son and husband (and most of DH's family) have autistic traits, at the very least. I have adjusted, and over time DH has begun to make adjustments for me.

There are times though, when I fall into the trap of 'not being sufficiently clear' - 'you should have said' and other times where I try to make sure something is clear and am told off for treating them like a child 'yes, ok, I get it, I got it the first time, I'm not an idiot!'.

It's always both people's responsibility to make adjustments in a situation which makes someone unhappy.

[HosannainExcelSheets]

I completely get that it's both people. But sometimes there's no way to that middle ground in a specific couple or relationship.

I had a awful marriage to an pregressively more emotionally abusive man. All the while "expert" therapists either blamed it on my autism or armchair diagnosed him with PDA and ASD. Neither diagnosis confirmed when he finally got assessed.

Now in a new relationship, and everything is much better. Communication, intimacy, disagreement are all possible. But it takes both sides to acknowledge that sometimes things will be lost in translation or over explained. I am sometimes a bit 🙄 at the over explaining, but then I agree that at other times I get about 2/3 of what people are saying and miss important non verbal communication.

It takes both sides to be willing to work bin problems, whether there's autism.in the mix or not. And if that's not happening then you can't fix the situation.

[Chnce]

I do think PDA (as a subset of autism) presents differently in many ways to the 'general' understanding and experience of autism. Autism is an 'umbrella' term as much as a spectrum. So, one person's experience of PDA will not be the same as another with diagnosed autism, although there are some similarities.

My "understanding" of this is not full-proof, but it is my current conclusion based on experience (family) and lots of reading. PDA is rarely "picked up" as an autism diagnosis, unless it is extreme, as some of the usual autism markers are not present e.g. people with PDA can appear more socially adept, can make eye contact, etc. In some ways I think its harder for people with PDA because it is so "invisible" so to speak - so they are just seen as difficult, unreliable or irresponsible.

[Chnce]

There is a PDA website that offers help and advice and a discussion forum. But, I think as OP says, its mostly directed helping those with children with PDA. There was a grown man's testimony on there I remember though I can't remember his name. He was middle aged, had been through many jobs, many marriages and had trouble with self-care. Later in life he ended up working with autistic children, realised he had some kind of special "affinity" with them and could relate to them well - then he realised that it was probably because he also had some undiagnosed PDA. There was alot of self-insight, but it was sort of sad to read as well.

[picklemewalnuts]

I think it's an odd area for diagnosis. If someone is surrounded by people who help them develop strategies and accommodate their needs, or simply just share those needs, then the extent of the difficulty isn't clear. A loving and sensitive home, a school which suits, a workplace with people of similar tendencies, and someone can get through life never experiencing significant problems. No diagnosis. It looks likely that a child on DH's side of the family is going to get a diagnosis, with concerns raised by nursery.

It's when you bump up against situations where there are many unstated expectations, unsympathetic managers and coworkers, a partner who is demanding of a 'typical' relationship, that someone realises they may not be neurotypical and seeks diagnosis- but often someone has to suggest it first. Otherwise it ends up being a trip to the GP, antidepressants/anti anxiety meds etc.

We can't necessarily tell we aren't like other people, because we only know what we know.
Similarly, I always think narcissism must be under diagnosed. The narcissist isn't going to suggest they have a problem and go for diagnosis.

[Chnce]

I think with PDA, many quite normal everyday 'demands' of life are seen as difficult or even impossible to deal with, Walnut. Even, say, getting up in the morning. Eating a meal. Washing your face. Making a phonecall. So it doesn't matter how sympathetic or loving an environment is. Or at least it makes little difference, IMO and IME.

I think other subsets of autism, or more general autism (for want of a better word) presents differently, so can perhaps be picked up more easily, e.g. in early childhood, or noticed in later life by someone who is knowledgeable about autism. Its also perhaps easier to make allowances e.g. in school or in the workplace because some of the markers are different to PDA.

[Okokokbear]

@DameJackieWeaver

What you seem to be seeing as ableism I see as looking for other reasons he could be behaving like this. Not just jumping to the conclusion he's a selfish dick. As not being able to help you with this behaviour and judging it the same as someone who could is what I'd say is ableism.

I have mental health issues. But I don't get offended at every one who suggest mh as reason for behaviour on countless threads. Because sometimes mental health issues do manifest in anger, lack of empathy, irritability, lack of ability to look after yourself. So I'm not reading mumsnet thinking oh everyone here thinks depressed people are angry, shouty messy people. But I am reading it thinking yes these are some things which can happen when you're unwell and we should consider this before advising on how to address the issue.

For example how we address somone who is living in loads ofess because they have chronic depression is pretty different to somone who just thinks it's other people's job to clean. I'm using mh as it's what I have experience of. But I feel this analogy applies to neuro diversity too.