DM is walking into a relationship with a convicted DV abuser

[waterproofed]

Please may I have a handhold.

DM moved in last year to help with childcare. DH, the kids and I are all very happy to be living together.

BACKGROUND

DM divorced my abusive alcoholic father around 10 years ago after 30 years together. It was a massive relief to know she was safe from him. It was a long and awful marriage - she finally left him after reading Lundy Bancroft when he threatened to kill her one night.

CURRENT SHITSHOW

Fast forward to present day and I signed her up for online dating as I knew she’d love to meet someone; definitely still young enough to enjoy retirement with.

A month in, she is now in touch with a convicted abuser; he assaulted his wife 10 years ago. They are now divorced. He also has a separate professional tribunal suspension for unethical behaviour in the workplace, the details of which also show him abusing his power at work.

DM really likes him, is impressed by him, feels sorry for him and wants to see where this relationship will go. She does not want to judge him and wants to give him a second chance at happiness because ‘he who is without sin should cast the first stone’. She is already super defensive about his behaviour and minimises even his criminal conviction as a mere peccadillo. I suggested therapy for which DM showed zero enthusiasm.

The heavy feeling in my stomach I used to have when my parents lived together has now returned. DM is so awesome and I cannot bear to see her do this. Yet I know this is her life and she has to make her own decisions - I’d never dictate who she could see.

Vipers, I knew some of you could understand the terror I’m currently feeling. I could cry.

[waterproofed]

@Summerhillsquare I so hope that you are right. However, expectations here are pretty low already, aren't they? He is a convicted wife beater.

@Muchadoaboutlife isn't it? DM is so clever and such a joy to be with, yet also very vulnerable in intimate relationships.

@OurChristmasMiracle DM is definitely lonely because she had to move some distance to live with us. She is great at making friends and has lots of interests, but Covid obviously makes any social life hard at the moment. You are, of course, very right about online dating.

[Lollyneenah]

Eurffff i couldn't read and run OP but what a shit show for you. Yes yes to all the above suggestions, but I think if shes still harping on like this after reading, or refuses to then you'll have to tell her that she is going to get herself killed. And if that doesnt do the trick then ask her to leave and stop contact. I know how hard it is (bitter experience with my own mum)

[waterproofed]

@SinkGirl and @PrincessNutNuts

I'm so sorry. I had no idea, very naively, that this was so common.

I was abused as a child and as a teenager, but once I became an adult properly in charge of my own destiny, I never allowed this to happen again. Any hint of a red flag sends me running for the hills.

I thought DM divorcing my father was the beginning of her freedom. I should have known better.

@tenlittlecygnets thank you

At the moment, DM is very resistant to the idea of therapy, which is, of course, the only way out of this. I can understand how unappealing this would be in comparison to being love-bombed by an expert manipulator.

DM is actively seeking out situations which make her surrender her agency and power. I understand that as a consequence of her life-long abuse.

[Bananalanacake]

It's good that she lives with you as he can't try to move in with her. But I don't know how you can stop her moving in with him.

[Kabakofte]

The comment that he is doggedly pursuing her is alarming!

[yesterdaystotalsteps123]

You have opened a real can of worms here signing up a lonely and vulnerable woman to online dating. It is FULL of predators looking to abuse women. I think you need to back pedal like mad, say it was a mistake signing her up and get her booked into some classes/activities she will enjoy, covid permitting.

[waterproofed]

@Kabakofte it’s like @SinkGirl said, DM’s subconsciously looking for the abusive love bombing.

@yesterdaystotalsteps123 the suggestion was definitely my fault, but the cat is out of the bag now. She’s an adult, I will not be confiscating anything or blocking anyone as a. I have no desire to control her; and b. it feeds into the larger parent-child dynamic (I’m the parent, unless it wasn’t obvious) where she’d start going behind my back.

I can’t believe how much of a mess this is.

[waterproofed]

I need a plan for what to do next which does not involve evicting DM right into the arms of the first sexual pervert with a criminal record.

What are your thoughts on showing her this thread? I’m grasping at straws here, aren’t I?

[Lolapusht]

I’d start getting counter-arguments/ predictions of what he’s going to do ready for when it happens. Abusers are really predictable and if you can either pre-empt him or label what he’s doing, then it might eventually get through to her....”Mum, that’s classic love-bombing. He’s doing that because xxx. How do you feel when he says these things? That’s exactly how he wants you to feel” etc. If the details of his conviction are known, how bad are they and has your mum read them rather than heard them from him? I assume that what he did to his ex-wife is pretty horrendous for him to have been convicted. Maybe give her examples of the actual conviction rates for domestic abuse to illustrate how bad it must have been. Unfortunately, it doesn’t sound like she’s going to be open to listening to you so you just have to accept that she’s going to do this and you’ll have to be around o pick up the pieces. If she’s acting like a stroppy teenager then treat her like one. Don’t put up with the nonsense but always leave the door open after they’ve stormed out.

[waterproofed]

All really good points, @Lolapusht thank you.

I’m really grateful for all your responses. I’m feeling less alone if no less terrified for DM.

[Dontbeme]

@waterproofed can you do a Clare's law application on behalf of your mother? She may take it more seriously when it is in black and white from the police. There would be no space to dismiss it from him, less chance of her thinking you are being unfair and not "giving him a chance" when it's right there from a legal authority. It may be the cold bucket of water she needs to read the details of what he did.

[waterproofed]

@Dontbeme Thank you. I will do the Claire’s law application this afternoon. DM is on board with that. I also got in touch with both my siblings to keep them abreast of the whole sorry saga. DM asked me yesterday not to share it, but I explained this morning this is not my secret to keep and it isn’t hers either. She accepted that.

I’m hoping that once everyone knows and they all have the same reaction, this will slowly become indefensible in her eyes too. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

DM also read the resources I sent her on love-bombing and she was reflective and quiet this morning. I also sent her links to the freedom programme.

I had a massive cry last night when on my own with DH and he helped me process this a bit, particularly in terms of assuaging my guilt around this whole situation.

[willloman]

Can you arrange for your internet to have a glitch around the sites that she's communicating with him on. Sounds terrible but I'd be tempted to block the sites sneakily and then arrange for some men in high vis to dig outside in the road and blame them!
More seriously you need to find her another distraction.

[AbiBrown]

Sorry, I have nothing useful to add in terms of advice but 1. Well done for being so level - headed and having such a mature approach to relationships yourself 2. You write beautifully!

[Respectabitch]

Without wanting to kick you when you're down about the signing her up for online dating thing... Has it occurred to you that her comfort zone, effectively, is to be the child told what to do by someone else, and in the absence of a partner she seems to have cast you in that role too? In other words, she thinks somewhere in her that you actively want and expect her to get a boyfriend, and she has to do so to "please" you? And you've kind of perpetuated that with the whole taking initiative to sign her up thing.

I think you've wisely spotted that the more you go "controlling parent" on her, the more she regresses into "petulant child". So I think that, like in most cases where an independent adult involves themselves with an abuser, there is nothing much you can do but respect her autonomy as an adult, decide and enforce your own boundaries for your and your children's safety, and take care of yourself. I know this feels like a slo-mo train crash, and it probably is, but if you take responsibility for stopping it you may well make it worse. She's going to do what she's going to do, she knows what you think already. I would try really really hard to stay in that adult-adult space with her as much as you can.

It might be worth saying explicitly to her that she doesn't need a boyfriend to be happy and there's no rush on that generally. You might like to seek support from DV charities for yourself for any emotions this brings up in you. I wish you the best and hope this doesn't end like you fear it will.

[goldielockdown2]

Oh this is horrific OP, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. If this were my mother I'd be so, so angry too. She's putting him above you and it's been a couple of weeks of online chatting? I despise victim blaming and have all the compassion in the world for victims of DV, but armed with the info she has about this man, she is still steamrolling forwards with this childish, teen rebellion behaviour.
This man hasn't even met her yet. And yet he's revealed his past knowing full well that most women would run a mile. He will zone in on anyone willing to proceed with him because he's done his victim test and knows he will get away with anything with a woman with no boundaries whatsoever.
It would actually be too painful for me to be a bystander and witness this shit show. She's your mum. NOT your child. Tackle what you can control: untangling the child-parent dynamic. Then judge whether this woman can even be trusted enough to play a grandparent role in your children's lives.

[waterproofed]

@AbiBrown Why, thank you! Really lovely of you to say that.

@Respectabitch Thank you for such a thoughtful response. It's very astute of you to spot that power dynamic. Siblings and I complain regularly that DM seeks out situations in which she gets to play the role of a child. For example, she has never hosted a family occasion on her own (be it Christmas, Easter, birthdays etc) always expecting someone else to take the initiative. Her living with us now definitely feeds that dynamic. But it is also mutually convenient and really lovely to get to spend so much time with DM without a spectre of an abusive male, which was always the case when I was a child; DM is excellent company. She always sees the best in people, is a pathological optimist and never gives up hope. These things obviously leave her vulnerable, but are also beautiful.

However, DM's desire for a heterosexual relationship is little to do with my expectations for her to be coupled up. I actually have quite radical views on men and masculinity; in short, IMO men are a plague upon us. Sure, I am happily married to a thoroughly decent human, but that is despite the fact that he is a man. On a societal level, we are still steeped in misogyny and men are an existential threat to women; personally, I don't understand why so many women willingly seek out mediocre men to spend their time and energy on. DM knows this, but I also appreciate that this perspective is tainted by my own abuse and, quite apart from that, I'm also speaking from a position of a safe, fulfilling, and loving relationship.

In short, wanting to have a boyfriend is definitely DM's desire and I signed her up for online dating as a lockdown distraction. I am now well and truly distracted.

I will remember to keep to the adult-adult space as much as I can, not forgetting the three Cs - I did not cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it.

@goldielockdown2 Thank you for the sympathy - gratefully received. I am not angry with DM because I understand that her involvement with the vile creature is nothing to do with me, but rather a reflection of her maladjustment which is the result of the abuse she suffered. I had years of therapy and decades of reflecting on this and I found a space where I can love and accept DM as she is. I only find it painful that she values her life and time so little. I will definitely use what you said about the vile creature's behaviour to make her see how the disclosure is a technique of finding the most vulnerable woman around.

Current plan: Clare's law application, open channels of communication, Wi-Fi malfunction (kidding!)

Thank you for sharing this with me. Siblings are aghast, but very much on board with the plan.

[user15368536798589]

I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

I'm not sure it's about wanting to be the "child" in relationships - and I suspect seeing it this way may be counterproductive for all parties - so much as when you've been controlled the majority of your life it is very, very difficult to make sense of being given control of your own life and can feel extremely unsafe. Unlimited freedom in that situation doesn't feel good, it feels confusing and dangerous.

Especially when the control was due to abuse so the boundaries of what was acceptable would change at random without any predictability - which means you don't even have a framework to try and replicate as a starting point for new boundaries and learning to make your own choices within that (as opposed to leaving a rigid institution where it was predictable and you can replicate that to give you a sense of safeness).

It's a combination of simply not being able to recognise that you're allowed to make free choices about xyz now (because when you've never had that you don't notice); not understanding how to make choices and which choices are acceptable vs which choices might "provoke" someone to hurt you; not feeling safe to make choices in case it leads to harm; feeling totally overloaded by the sheer volume of choices you suddenly have to make each day (and navigating these hurdles for each of them) when before you couldn't make any; and just feeling unsafe with having choices and freedom.

I remember feeling like I'd landed on an alien planet and was trying to find my way along a cliff edge in fog with no fencing or lighting, when I left my abusive situation.

I felt so unsafe, was constantly terrified that every decision I made would result in somebody new stepping into the "enforcer" role and hurting me, and didn't have a framework for assessing what I was and was not allowed to do. I didn't have a clue how to work that out.

For example, I used to stand in the supermarket afraid to touch anything because I had no instructions and was petrified if I bought the "wrong" thing that some random person would intervene to attack me. Punishment was what I was used to so I expected it would have to come from somewhere else even if my abuser was gone.

I did lots of things that I look at now as silly, but it was because I didn't spot that actually I could choose to wear a coat if I wanted to or I didn't have to wait until precisely 6pm to take the bins out. My brain couldn't recognise where choices existed because it had never experienced it before. It did not see the opportunity for a choice that other people did.

I spent a LOT of time asking myself (and occasionally others) "am I allowed to... (write a shopping list / wear this / buy this brand of bread / eat 3 slices of toast...).

I suppose I'm sharing this because I wonder if it would feel less frustrating for you to see that maybe it isn't that your mum is trying to adopt a child role, but that she really isn't equipped after decades of abuse to recognise or feel safe with the level of freedom and choice-making most people are?

It does sound like your mum could benefit from therapy with someone who understands abuse and trauma, although of course she needs to feel ready to take that on which is hard. Freedom Programme might be a good stepping stone.

Aside from therapy and connecting with other abuse survivors with similar struggles to me, one of the things that helped me to learn how to spot choices and feel safe with freedom was having safe places to practise (which did mostly come through specialist support). So that was things like regularly being asked for my opinion on how things were being done (e.g. organising a party type situations where there are lots of different options) and then seeing that sometimes that would be listened to and presented back as a choice or acted upon to change the direction of plans. At the same time as the people around me were holding back from telling me what to do or choosing for me. (I recognise I was fortunate with the support I had and am by no means suggesting this is your burden to take on - like I said, most of this was professional support.)

The first and greatest hurdle was probably learning how to even notice I had a choice available to me, from there it was easier to start learning to exercise little choices and build up.

I wonder if that's where your mum still is and whether that might also be feeding her sense that she effectively has to give this man "a second chance" ? Like she doesn't recognise she even has a choice about it, it's not her responsibility and she could decline? To her it's just happening and that's it, no choices to be seen?

If you've made it through all that, I wish you all the best. I would be scared too and I hope you can find a way through.

[user15368536798589]

Disclaimers obviously apply about my experiences not being universal etc etc. Merely intended as an alternative perspective!

[Respectabitch]

@user15368536798589

I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

I'm not sure it's about wanting to be the "child" in relationships - and I suspect seeing it this way may be counterproductive for all parties - so much as when you've been controlled the majority of your life it is very, very difficult to make sense of being given control of your own life and can feel extremely unsafe. Unlimited freedom in that situation doesn't feel good, it feels confusing and dangerous.

Especially when the control was due to abuse so the boundaries of what was acceptable would change at random without any predictability - which means you don't even have a framework to try and replicate as a starting point for new boundaries and learning to make your own choices within that (as opposed to leaving a rigid institution where it was predictable and you can replicate that to give you a sense of safeness).

It's a combination of simply not being able to recognise that you're allowed to make free choices about xyz now (because when you've never had that you don't notice); not understanding how to make choices and which choices are acceptable vs which choices might "provoke" someone to hurt you; not feeling safe to make choices in case it leads to harm; feeling totally overloaded by the sheer volume of choices you suddenly have to make each day (and navigating these hurdles for each of them) when before you couldn't make any; and just feeling unsafe with having choices and freedom.

I remember feeling like I'd landed on an alien planet and was trying to find my way along a cliff edge in fog with no fencing or lighting, when I left my abusive situation.

I felt so unsafe, was constantly terrified that every decision I made would result in somebody new stepping into the "enforcer" role and hurting me, and didn't have a framework for assessing what I was and was not allowed to do. I didn't have a clue how to work that out.

For example, I used to stand in the supermarket afraid to touch anything because I had no instructions and was petrified if I bought the "wrong" thing that some random person would intervene to attack me. Punishment was what I was used to so I expected it would have to come from somewhere else even if my abuser was gone.

I did lots of things that I look at now as silly, but it was because I didn't spot that actually I could choose to wear a coat if I wanted to or I didn't have to wait until precisely 6pm to take the bins out. My brain couldn't recognise where choices existed because it had never experienced it before. It did not see the opportunity for a choice that other people did.

I spent a LOT of time asking myself (and occasionally others) "am I allowed to... (write a shopping list / wear this / buy this brand of bread / eat 3 slices of toast...).

I suppose I'm sharing this because I wonder if it would feel less frustrating for you to see that maybe it isn't that your mum is trying to adopt a child role, but that she really isn't equipped after decades of abuse to recognise or feel safe with the level of freedom and choice-making most people are?

It does sound like your mum could benefit from therapy with someone who understands abuse and trauma, although of course she needs to feel ready to take that on which is hard. Freedom Programme might be a good stepping stone.

Aside from therapy and connecting with other abuse survivors with similar struggles to me, one of the things that helped me to learn how to spot choices and feel safe with freedom was having safe places to practise (which did mostly come through specialist support). So that was things like regularly being asked for my opinion on how things were being done (e.g. organising a party type situations where there are lots of different options) and then seeing that sometimes that would be listened to and presented back as a choice or acted upon to change the direction of plans. At the same time as the people around me were holding back from telling me what to do or choosing for me. (I recognise I was fortunate with the support I had and am by no means suggesting this is your burden to take on - like I said, most of this was professional support.)

The first and greatest hurdle was probably learning how to even notice I had a choice available to me, from there it was easier to start learning to exercise little choices and build up.

I wonder if that's where your mum still is and whether that might also be feeding her sense that she effectively has to give this man "a second chance" ? Like she doesn't recognise she even has a choice about it, it's not her responsibility and she could decline? To her it's just happening and that's it, no choices to be seen?

If you've made it through all that, I wish you all the best. I would be scared too and I hope you can find a way through.

Very wise and insightful contribution, thanks. Tbh we all do tend to regress into "child" when another adult gets "parent" on us, but I do appreciate your framing on not even knowing you had a choice. Thinking adult:adult can be helpful though IME in terms of making sure you give the person space to take those choices, or at least I've always found it so 😁

[waterproofed]

@user15368536798589 that is hugely useful and far more productive way to think about this.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I really appreciate that you took the time to explain how it felt for you to learn to make everyday choices after abuse. DM definitely still struggles with this and will ask my advice/opinion on what to buy, how to cut up bread/carrots for dinner, what to wear etc. Lots of food for thought.

[LemonBreeland]

I would be soooo severely tempted if you know her online dating password to go onto the app and block this man.

This was my first thought too.

[waterproofed]

Also, I've just submitted the application under Clare's law.

As a childish aside of my own, I hate that this fucker is now occupying my mental space. My life was better for never having known about his existence.

Rant over, thank you

[dottiedodah]

I think you sound like a lovely kind person and loving daughter .However your DM is an Adult ,and sadly has fallen into a bad choice of men from her previous experiences .ATM while she is living with you ,this means you are indirectly involved .Maybe it would be best for her to find her own place again? Does she have any female friends or other relatives to connect with? I know you want to protect her ,and who wouldnt?,but she is a grown up and will sadly do what she thinks best ,not what you and everyone else here(including me!)think .That is the situation .I wish you well and hope showing her some of the replies here may help ,but you may have to face up to the facts that she doesnt want to leave him sadly.(Hope Im wrong)

[Aknifewith16blades]

Lots of sympathy OP. I've been in a similar place with relatives myself. Ultimately you cannot force their decisions, but nor can you shield them from the fallout of those choices. If she keeps going, she may end up in a place where you can't safely let her have a relationship with you or your children.

Another thought to add to all the good advice, If she's a Christian and that's playing into things, could you encourage a talk with her vicar/ priest?

Such a difficult situation.