"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

[PeppermintCrayon]

Oops, posted by accident.

I wrote my mother an email saying not to contact me. If I had my time again I think I wouldn't bother with that.

I have all toxic family members blocked on FB and all emails set to forward to DH who is under strict instruction to only tell me about emails if someone has died or is about to.

[Somermummy1]

Love heart - I totally understand re FB. I am in the early stages of NC - coming up to 4 weeks- and unfriended my 'd'M then.

She mentioned that in her email to me 3 weeks ago which I haven't replied to

I also agree with the other posters (sorry on phone so can't check who! Sorry peppermint I think!) about not writing or having that final conversation in some form

I've composed a reply to the email so many times in head and on the screen but have so far resisted the urge to reply because if I do then she'll have to reply to me and then we are back to square one!

Please unfriend her on FB

At the moment she can follow what's going on in your life without actually having the decency to reach out to you which a mother should no matter how old we are

My mum is still friends with people who comment on my now rare postings and I hate that she can see my posts thru that but at least it's a good start

Be brave

You're so much stronger than you think you are

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Loveheart

Do unfriend your mother on FB (FB is such a great tool for narcissists to use in any case).

And PeppermintCrayon's comments are worth repeating:-
"The way to truly go NC is simply to do just that: no contact. Change your phone numbers if need be. Blocking her on Facebook will give YOU some peace. You could announce it but a conversation gives her another chance to suck you back in".

Any contact from you just gives her an "in" to bother you even more, it simply keeps the relationship going.

[Meerka]

oh god Inicked I'm so sorry that you have had this awful revelation.

It sounds heartbreaking. Devastating. Wish I could offer you and your brother a hug.

It's going to take a long time to make sense of, never mind coming to terms with. Your father sounds a horrendous man and tbh, your step brother sounds as bad. Whyyyy ring up and do this to you???

Fwiw he sounds an awful man, even if he was your Dad and you loved him. Did your mum ever warn you of what he was like? she must have known.

How to cope? Be easy on yourself now and for some times. This is a hell of a shock. I suspect that at some level what has been said is not wholly unknown, it's clear from the incidents you mentioned that you knew something wasn't right (but to having it brought into focus now, against all your illusions and the beliefs you had, is just cruel). However, what we know at one level and what we believe at another can be different things.

On a practical level, make sure you eat regularly and good meals, exercise if you can, sleep might be difficult but try some sleep exercises. Give yoruself a specific time in the day to think about it, say 15 mins a day, then put it on one side til the next day if you can.

Is there anyone you can talk to about this, except your poor brother? :s Being able to talk it over (and over and over) might help over time.

[BruceSpringClean]

Thanks for the support PencilCrayon Snaps - it's great to get it all out on here. I don't have anybody in RL that I can talk to about this (nobody understands, everybody thinks my mother's lovely. She's very good at making herself look good )

TheyMakeMeFeelLikeShit Snap! My Mother's not on Facebook either, thank god. One less thing to worry about

INickedAName Welcome to the thread - I hope you find some comfort here. It sounds like your Dad has found all sorts of new & cruel ways to hurt you over the years, and this is the latest. And how awful that your stepbrother should get involved. I remember somebody on a previous thread using the term "complex grief" - you're not just mourning for the relationship you wish you could have had with your parent, you're also dealing with all these additional insults and cruelties that come from having a "parent" who enjoys causing emotional havoc & pain, or drama, to those around them. I'm so sorry you're dealing with all this x

[SnapCackleFlop]

INicked sorry you're going through this - I don't know what to suggest :( sending virtual hugs.

Bruce I totally understand how horrible it is when the narc person makes themselves look wonderful. I read 'Will I Ever Be Good Enough' and there's an example of a Narc parent who does the same job as my mum (don't want to out myself but it's very caring/compassionate) and it felt good that I read this could even be possible because I always felt I had to be the problem because someone doing that job but be good.

Loveheart I think FB is more trouble that it's worth. I was going to say can you stop getting updates from her without actually blocking her but then she'd still see your posts I think. Is there a way you can avoid the confrontation of blocking her but avoid her on it?

[GoodtoBetter]

Hello everyone. Suddenly feeling really sad today. I miss my mum. I can't believe she just walked away. Can't imagine doing that to my kids and she did it to me and her grandchildren. She hasn't seen us since August. :(

[SnapCackleFlop]

GoodtoBetter I think I know what you mean about your own kids. When I'm feeling low I think that in time to come if my DCs see a counsellor when they're adults and ask me to be part of it because of what they're working through I'll come and say, 'You're right.... I'm sorry.'

These dynamics when the adult child is scapegoated are so sad and strange. I can't ever imagine being like that either.

Does your mum live nearby?

[Meerka]

good .... x

[Aussiebean]

I am sorry good. Even after years of 'acceptance' there are still times where it is sad that she just refuses to be my mother. The disinterest is sometimes staggering.

It's ok to be sad once in awhile. In fact completely understandable. In the mean time take comfort in the family you do have and remember you are loved.

[GoodtoBetter]

Thanks snap, aussie and meerka. It's so good to have people who understand. Snap it's a long story, but we lived with her for three years then moved out then final explosive row and she emigrated without saying goodbye rather than apologise for saying truly awful things about me. I had a long thread on here and then the rest played out across this thread.
I feel quite teary today. It might be my period coming. Or maybe just that it's hard to get your head round your own mum not wanting to say sorry for calling you a thief, liar, stupid, a crap mum and bad daughter. A mum who prefers to emigrate than say sorry.
I know it's not her I miss really, she made my life difficult and stressful, but still.....She does this big "love you forever" crap in the kids birthday cards but never even asks about them. Dbro says she never mentions them. She's missed:
DS starting primary
DD starting infants
DS learning karate
DS learning to ride a bike without stabilisers
their birthdays and christmas
me passing my professional exams
us buying a house.
and just us and our lives..
Can't get my head around that no matter how much I read about narcs. All because she would have to admit she hurt me and say she's sorry. She knows why I stopped talking to her, she's admitted that to my brother.
Argh. I'm having a cup of tea and trying to cheer myself up a bit.

[Loveheart0]

Oh I know I need to just do something solid and delete her, I suppose I'm just scared. I didn't initiate NC, she did so I suppose by wanting a confrontation I'm trying to get things on my terms. I'm also scared of the backlash also still haven't got my head around NC with both parents and the fact that I'll be seen as the crazy sensitive one. Knowing that I'm NC with my mum will make my dad feel better and I don't want him to have the satisfaction.
Snap not really, I've already unfollowed her but it's seeing her likes and comments on other people's things that upsets me. No way to stop that I think.
Somer thank you that was a really kind post, what you said about reaching out made sense, the thing is that she has been but just never following it up. I've realised it's weekends; in two months I've never had a weekend without some intrusion from her even if it's tiny. It's obviously just when she has the time for me Theres a text and plan to meet the next weekend, then the next weekend she never shows, then the next weekend a message through a sibling about meeting the next weekend which I don't reply to and wonder if she'll turn up anyway - that's a month gone right
there. And even when I stop engaging - in that example I only sent one text on the first weekend and the following three were still occupied by her in my head (not outside my head - I go out, see friends, do things, not allowing her THAT much control). I know exactly how to stop it - I've done it all before with my dad. I'm just not brave or decisive enough. I always feel like I need her to do one more awful thing so I can prove it to myself. It's just shit.

[pocketsaviour]

good Un-MN (hugs) for you. I also get these sad days from time to time. I think the only thing is just to ride them out.

INicked so sorry, your dad and step-family sound like an absolute bunch of cunts. Who the hell phones someone up at 3am to tell them their dad hated them?? And yes it's not the money itself that is the issue - it's that the money is a symptom of his lack of caring for two of his children.

[INickedAName]

Thank you so much for the kind words and good advice.

I'll not be contesting anything. I don't want anything from them. I wouldn't give them the satisfaction tbh. I'll try write the things that are bothering me the most.

Mum and dad divorced when I was around 4, and my memories of us living together is of him locking me and my baby brother in our room, locking mum in hers and fucking off to watch the telly, my brother was crying and as my mum couldn't shush him, he did that. I've been scared if the dark ever since, I was just too shirt to reach the light bulb, even now, at 35 I can't sleep in a dark silent room.

A few days after he left, he tried to set fire to the house, my mum knew it was him, she knew, but my gran lied and said he was with her. I asked him about it when I was around 20, and he admitted it. But the way he explained it to me, I ended uo feeling sorry for him. He says he knew that we were not in the house ( he couldn't have known) and was actually offended and hurt that I'd think he'd try to hurt us. He thought my Mum was telling tales and wouldn't accept it was stuff I remembered.

When he married his second wife, I was about 6, she had a dd who was the same age as me, his wife was awful, she'd hit me and call me names when dad wasn't there, or she would say I'd done something naughty and she'd make dad smack me. He lived a five min drive away, was earning very good money, and took my mum to court (before csa) to try get the £5 maintenance a week he paid reduced, as he had step daughter to look after, he also wanted to reduce contact and only have one of us at a time as it's not fair on the stepdaughter having to share, he was told to pay more maintenance and that the little contact we had should be increased if anything. I wasn't aware of this until recently as mum tried to shield us from it. I never told her about his wife hitting me, I knew she'd be upset, and stop us from going and that would hurt my Dad. He called me selfish for not thinking of others, for wanting him to come my sports days, just once, to think how step sister would feel if he left her out to spend time with me. She would be sat on his lap, calling him daddy, and I'd be flicked away by either him or his wife if tried to get a hug. They said I was spiteful and jealous, they were right I was. It got to point I didn't want to go at all, I was 7 and cried to myself for days before we were due to go, I'd hope he didn't turn up, he'd ask if my mum was slagging him off (she wasn't), and I knew better than to say it's because of being slapped and hit so I just tried to not be noticed. I thought there was something wrong with me.

His third wife, his widow didn't hit me, but would say hateful things about my mum, I think being hit would have been less painful, if that makes sense, and the one time my bro asked her not to, she hit him, I always felt unwelcome, different. So again just tried to go unnoticed. One night when I was about 12 he hadn't seen us for months, he fucked off out for the night and left us with a couple we had never met. I can't speak the words, I really can't, but that man hurt me, I never slept at dad's house again and couldn't tell anyone why. I told dad in anger the year before he died, I told him not to tell anyone, he said the babysitter had form, he contacted the wife, told all of his family and phoned the police. I couldn't go to court, I wasn't strong enough, which annoyed him, apparently he'd been abusing his daughter (who Nobody believed.) and that if I'd spoke when I was 12, she could have been saved, and Dad said I couldn't blame him, because being a Dad is hard work and he needed his night out, and he and his wife need time together. So again I felt like a cunt. For even telling him about it as it made him want to kill himself. The man is in jail, my speaking out did that, even if I was to scared to go to court and give evidence.

My Mum thought she was doing the right thing in letting us see dad, she wasn't aware of any of the things I've mentioned here and still isn't about the babysitter. I can't tell her, it will break her. She never once called my dad names in front of us, my dad would slag my mum off everytime he saw us, he'd says she's unfit to have children, but did fuck all to rescue us from such a shit mother. If I'd told mum, she would have stopped us going, and I know dad would have acted hurt, and when I was a child, his feelings were the most important.

Any achievements were all down to him, what a great dad we had, anything wrong was down to my shit mums parenting.

The turning point for me was becoming a mother myself, I look at my dd, and remember myself at her age, and the things dad did and said, and can't imagine why anyone would be so cruel. I wouldn't raise my dd the way he wanted me to, so I was a shit mum too. I might not have been able to protect myself, but I was certainly not gonna let him hurt my dd.

I can talk to dh, but he has his own family problems at the minute, mil is unwell and I don't want to burden him with my crap, I know he would be lovely, but he has enough to worry about at the moment. Reading all that back I can't believe how the hell I could think any of it normal, and that's just the tip. If he really didn't care, he should have fucked off when he left Mum and I'd have been saved a lot of pain. Extended family think he is great, they'd never believe me, because he used to talk about how proud he was etc.

Sorry this got so long, and if you've read it thank you, I've dloaded some of the books linked. I'm going to watch a DVD with dd and snuggle on sofa with her. Thank you for listening. It's helped massively writing it down.

[BruceSpringClean]

INicked I read it, and am so sorry for all of the things your father put you through. You absolutely did the right thing in keeping him away from your dd. There must be a lot going through your mind at the moment. Keep posting here if you can't talk to anyone in RL. Good luck with the books & I hope you have a lovely afternoon with your DD.

[Loveheart0]

INicked I read it too and I'm so sorry. Keep talking here, we're listening and we care. Hope you enjoyed your film.

[PeppermintCrayon]

loveheart i realise now that I totally got confused and didn't twig that you didn't choose NC, I'm really sorry.

[PeppermintCrayon]

inicked I read it too. I'm so sorry for all you went through.

[ppolly]

INicked, I read it too. I'm sorry. Hope you enjoy your DVD.

I have a parent dilemma. My father lives down south and can no longer travel to see us. Last year I took my dd down on the train and stayed at my brother's for a couple of nights so he could see her. Because of past history (narcissistic mother who doesn't 'do' emotions/passive father) I'm always extremely anxious around my family and can't really handle them for more than a day. My dd and father actually enjoyed the visit but I was trying to hide panic attacks/lack of sleeping and generally felt quite ill. I know my dad will want me to do it again this year, but I really don't think I can face it. Any advice welcome.

[goldenrose]

Inicked im so sorry for you and sending you lots of hugs we are all here for you to listen and try help you,

Had a great talk with a good friend of mine yesterday, she too like me has LC with her mother and family ( thank god I have one friend who understands!) But we were discussing how we both worry about how we raise our children and worry about repeating the same mistakes are parents made, at the moment I am telling friends about my pregnancy, all exciting times had first scan Tuesday and all well I know my close friends who I have told mean well but find it hard when the ask have I told my parents ( telling them at weekend) I just feel like a freak or weird most women find out they are pregnant and their mothers are one of the first they tell!! Not many of my friends get that I don't have a mom like that and know by their tone of voice or expression they think it's me who is being horrible to my mom by not telling her straight away, and these friends are ones I grew up with one of them I used to practically live in her house cos I wasn't wanted in my own home she was well aware of my problems with my parents!! It's really hard wjen people don't understand feel like they think it's me not my family and now I'm beginning to think maybe I should take some of the responsibility,

[ppolly]

goldenrose, I can understand completely. My mother's reaction to my engagement and (some years later) pregnancy, was of mild disapproval of a 'why on earth would anyone want to to that?' variety. I don't talk about my parents much. I'm glad your scan went well and that your friends can be excited with you.

[Meerka]

Inicked I am so very sorry. You should never, ever have had to go through that. Your father was not fit to have the name.

goldenrose most of us who have difficult parents find it hard to tell them and most of us have experience of other friends not getting it. Hold strong to what YOU want to do here. Don't feel pressured by others.

Answers you can use "It's complicated". "We don't have much contact and there's good reason for that". "The time isn't right". Maybe practise saying it in a firm, maybe even standoffish voice and if they persist, change the subject firmly.

Sadly having intolerable parents sets you apart in a bad way from other people. It -is- lonely. I feel very much on the outside. But hold hard to your guns; you tell her when YOU are ready. Don't get stampeded by well meaning but unaware friends.

[Theymakemefeellikeshit]

Inicked Oh my. I am so sorry that you are having to deal with this. I don't know what to say but at least here you can say how you feel and no one will judge and a lot of the posters have such helpful things to say.

I am on facebook but not too good on the technical side but can't you have the setting so that friends of friends can't see you posts?

Good Hope you feel a bit cheerier this evening.

Inicked Read your second post. Even more upset for you. Carry on posting here and I hope that your MIL gets better soon and your DH can be of support.

ppolly It can't be easy. Are your parents divorced or has your mum died? The sounds like it is him on his own.

golden Glad the scan went well. I can't believe that I am saying the next thing to a pregnant woman but 'good luck with announcing your pregancy'!!

ppolly when I told my mother I was pregnant with her first GC she said 'why do you want to waste your life. If I had my time again I wouldn't have children'. When I got married I didn't invite anyone.

[INickedAName]

polly would staying in a B and B be an option? I was just thinking that it may lessen your anxiety knowing you'll be going to your own space at the end of the day. I dont have any advice, but understand the anxiety around family, I much preferred going to dad's than him coming here as I could leave when I felt uncomfortable, whereas if they came to me, they would stay for hours.

golden I'm glad your scan went well, and I hope telling your mother goes as smoothly as possible.

[ppolly]

INickedAName - yes that might be a good idea. In fact I could take dd to Bath to stay a night (she has never been) it is not too far for dad to meet us there for the day. He is not on his own - I have a step-mother who I don't know very well (dad remarried a few years ago).
Both my parents have mellowed alot over the years. Although mum still comes out with the odd remark eg 'you never could quite decide on a career, could you?' I don't really think of her as a mother, if that makes sense, more as an elderly person who has known me for a while.
My mother lives with her (lady) partner. My parents separated the millisecond I 'd done my A levels. They'd only stayed together because of me. I have a much older golden boy brother. I have been an outstanding disappointment to my mother, who banned all access to anything 'girly' - ballet lessons, sindy dolls - I was very domestic and loved sewing, baking, dolls houses (the last interest was shared by my dad). I was hopelessly anxious to please. There was an awful lot of rowing whilst I was growing up.
Despite this I have two degrees, a lovely husband and gorgeous daughter. But very little self-esteem. Not sure where to find any. I'm stuck in a minimum wage job (although I do tutor privately) and have an nc boss who is chillingly like my mother....It is just beginning to dawn on me that maybe I am an actually acceptable member of the human race, who could carry on thriving in the right circumstances.
thank you for reading my essay!