to wonder why so many women put up with so much shit...

[BoozeyTuesday]

...from men, post threads crying about how awful they're treated, discount the very good advice they're given to leave the bastard, disagree he is a bastard, make excuses and blame themselves, and stay with th. cunt anyway. What's the point in posting in the first place if you're just going to ignore what everyone says?!

[King1982]

Is LTB/leave the bastard or bitch ok to say? I'm focusing more on the words bastard and bitch, or have they become redefined?

[Lucy90]

Some women are so fucking terrified of their partner they see no way out, but need emotional support from other women-i say this from a past experience with my ex.
I for one hope your fruitless post wont stop women in need of help posting and requesting support.
Your post screams to me the attitude of 'it cant be that bad if she has stayed with him'. This outlook could be dangerous for women (or men!) at risk

[iwashappy]

When I discovered my husband was probably cheating on me I didn't leave the bastard straightaway, it actually took me nearly two months to even speak to him about it.

Why? Shock, disbelief, fear. I found it very hard to comprehend that he was actually having an affair, I clung desperately to any excuse I could think of to try and convince myself that he wasn't really doing this. I wasn't thinking straight, I wasn't functioning properly I just wanted it all to go away and it sure as hell wasn't going to go away if I actually spoke to him about it.

I was scared. Scared of everything really; scared that he was actually having an affair, scared that my family might get broken up, scared of how our children would cope, scared of being by myself and how I would manage, scared of anyone knowing because I felt humiliated and ashamed.

I needed time. Time to get my head around it, time to confirm my suspicions, time to get support and strength, time to realise that I couldn't live like this any longer pretending that everything was okay when it wasn't.

My worst fears and then some were confirmed but I still didn't feel able to end my marriage, I needed time, space, to work it all through, see how I felt, how sincere he was. It was nearly four months from when I suspected he was cheating to when I actually ended my marriage and I only did that then when I found out that he had cheated before so it wasn't out of character for him.

Even now, nearly five months after I've ended my marriage, I still make excuses for him to some extent, don't really accept he's a total bastard in some ways. I've ended my marriage, know I wouldn't even think about taking him back if he begged and that is enough for me.

I am so pleased that the women on here who have posted on my thread have not had your attitude. But instead I have had amazing support, insight, kindness and time given to me which has helped me enormously get to the place I now am. Women like Fontella, AF and WellWhoKnew, who have posted on this thread, who I can never thank enough for what they have helped me through. Sometimes with kind words, practical advice, emotional support, insight and wisdom, making me face up to things, kicks up the backside and sometimes even laughs. I know I'm still frustrating at times but I'm dealing with things the best way I can.

So the point of posting in the first place is because you need help, even if to start with it's just someone to listen and pour your heart out to.

[PeppermintCrayon]

Because he threatened to kill himself.
Because he threatened to kill me.

Is that good enough for you op? I'm hiding this thread before I tell you where to shove it.

[rootypig]

Because people are not all like you; they are different in an infinite number of ways.

Imagine that!

[meddie]

Because many women are conditioned to believe that they should work at a relationship. that to give up reflects on them badly. that failure to have a successful relationship makes them a lesser person.
Woman are constantly sold the message in magazines and media that the onus is on them to 'keep their man'.That if they are not part of a couple they are somehow worth less
Every week cosmo and its ilk ran articles and quizzes on how to keep your man, how to give the best blowy, problem pages were full of relationship problems were the women were told to pay him more attention, dress up nicely for him and work at keeping him happy.
its a constant insidious message of our formative years and its a bloody strong one.To throw the towel in means you are less of a woman and a failure.

Once you are entangled in an abusive relationship, the nature of the abuse grounds you down, you lose yourself, every waking thought is about him, how to keep him happy, how to not wind him up, how to avoid another smack, you are walking on eggshells, you literally don't have the time or energy to actually stop and consider your own needs, the concept becomes alien to you.

To leave an abusive relationship takes strength of will, finances,planning. The sheer logistics of it can seem overwhelming when all your mental capacity is taken up with pandering to his emotions and moods. It canfeel insurmountable

[mix56]

"unfathomable, that so many men want a hostage not a partner. Lot love and respect but" ........ A POSSESSION, someone to Lord over, to dominate....
I suppose that takes us back to the Victorian theme.

It is so much more complicated, than just LTB. infinitely more....

no government handouts, leave to go where? with what money? with friends & family unsympathetic, foreign language, no job, small children...
Apathy, inertia, mysery, depression........it is easier physically to stay,
It is a kind of sacrificial limbo

[OurGlass]

Twat

[Fontella]

sacrificial limbo

What an utterly brilliant description!

[arthriticfingers]

'no government handouts, leave to go where? with what money? with friends & family unsympathetic, foreign language, no job, small children...
Apathy, inertia, mysery, depression........it is easier physically to stay,
It is a kind of sacrificial limbo'
Tears of recognition

[Sickoffrozen]

Meddie, I think you have hit the nail
on the head with that one and it's not neccesarily just abusive relationships too.

The obsession with dieting too is often linked to being more appealing to your man!

I would encourage all women to be financially independent first and foremost. I would promote this message to all of our daughters.

Being financially independent is key to taking control back. If you know you can survive on your own financially then at least it gives you choice.

[pompodd]

Agree with Meddie and Sickoffrozen.

Christopher Hitchens, bless him, used to say (in relation to poverty) that the surest way of improving the lot of the very poorest in the world was very simple and had never been shown to fail. It was straightforwardly: the empowerment of women. In particular giving them control over their bodies and reproduction.

I think that although in the UK we are a highly developed and economically advanced society compared to parts of the developing world, we are still living in a patriarchy where men set the rules and gender identities and roles are pre-defined for many.

Financial independence for women (just another way of empowering them) is key, to my mind. Because in our society, money often equals power.

[mix56]

Money equals possibility of independence.
in theory the abusers have a lesser hold over someone who CAN upsticks, although many women still persist in their abusive relationships.

Control over reproduction, yes clearly it is easier to leave if you haven't got the emotional tangle of children, but VERY OFTEN the relationship functions until pregnancy & the arrival of children. At which point the attacks on the vulnerable unsuspecting mothers are crippling

[Sickoffrozen]

Mix- it's not just abusive relationships though. For those, I think whilst financial independence helps to a degree, there are a whole lot of other very difficult problems to overcome as described elsewhere.

However, even if it is not an abusive relationhip, it say a husband or partner is having an affair or has had an affair, I think it is much harder for a Parent with little or no income to make the decision to leave for example than for a career woman who earns enough to support herself and her family.

My mother had a very unhappy marriage but for 10 years didn't work and for 10 years after that, didn't earn enough to go it alone, so she stayed! She really pushed me to become financially independent and this helped me greatly when my husband had an affair. Financially I was fine and it took one less worry away.

[mix56]

wise woman !

[pompodd]

mix56 - agreed. But I wasn't suggesting that financial independence and control over reproduction were all that was needed. But they are very powerful tools in a capitalist society and they are tools that, historically at least, men have had primary control over.

But then I'm a liberal lefty (and a man) who also calls himself a feminist. We have a bloody long way to go!

[mix56]

It seems to be some women don't want to give up on their marriage, whether they are used, abused, cheated on, whatever the situation.
Whether it's the status, the kids, the indoctrination, the finances.... some women just aren't "hurt" enough to walk away...... an addiction ?

[pompodd]

Hmm, I suspect that's one for women themselves to address. But I agreed with what meddie said above. And I wouldn't call it an addiction - it's much more powerful than that!

[popalot]

It can be frustrating to watch a woman come to terms with the abusive relationship she is in and to wait whilst she works out how to exit it. I think that's what the OP is trying to say.

OP, women don;t just suddenly wake up one morning and realise they need to leave. It takes a while to accept it's abuse because part of the abuse is to minimalise it and blame the victim for it. The victim spends most of the time thinking they need to fix themselves to make the relationship better. It can take a long time for women to realise they are not at fault.

Once they reach this stage (which can take years) they then have to work out how to leave / how the man should leave. This can be a dangerous time for women and children and has to be done very carefully, with lots of support, not rashly. Again, this can take months.

What we need to do as women is educate our girls about abusers and how to recognise them early on (before children) and raise their self esteem so they don't blame themselves for the abuse. This is what we need to do to stop the cycle. Empower our girls.

[meddie]

financial independence is vital. Its so much harder to walk away if you dont have the means to support yourself or your children, but its only one facet. Many women in abusive relationships grew up watching their parents in abusive relationships too. If what you see around you is men having power and control over their partners, giving them a slap if they step out of line, controlling finances, the woman kowtowing to their partners to keep the peace etc, then that is your 'norm' your boundaries over what is a healthy normal relationship are distorted, Other people telling you that you should walk away from what you see as a normal relationship with its ups and downs isnt going to resonate with you. Others in your formative years stayed with their partners through beatings, EA and affairs so maybe it isnt actually 'that bad' its the normal after all isnt it?.

Its the main reason I walked away from my marriage. He was EA, but i,m no delicate flower and could stand up to his bullshit and call him on it. I believed for years that I should stay and work on my marriage, if I only tried harder, did all the right things etc it could work, after all isnt that the right thing to do? thats what I had grew up believing.

It was the realisation that my children were witnessing this and it would form their view of what a relationship was that made me walk

[meddie]

"What we need to do as women is educate our girls about abusers and how to recognise them early on (before children) and raise their self esteem so they don't blame themselves for the abuse. This is what we need to do to stop the cycle. Empower our girls."

^
THIS.. so much this. It should be on the national curriculum

[JulyKit]

I am pleased that this thread has actually become, despite the original post, actually a font of wisdom and solidarity in a way that only MNetters know how.

Agreed!

It's turned out well.

[D0oinMeCleanin]

I asked my mum why she stayed in abusive relationship once. She told me he'd promised to hunt her down and kill her and her children if she left. If he couldn't find her, he'd kill her younger brother and her father instead. She believed him.

I stayed because the thought of leaving and all the unknowns it held was scarier than the reality of staying.

Yes he was a twat. Yes he bullied the children, he bullied me. He was financially controlling, lazy and perverted.

He also provided well for us financially. Gave us a roof over our heads, took us on holiday and made sure the children wanted for nothing. He told me that was happiness. He spent 10 years telling me having your own home and holidays abroad each year and fancy christmas gifts was happiness. He spent 10 years showing me evidence that this was happiness and 10 years telling me how UNhappy I would be without him.

He also spent 10 years telling me I was nothing without him. That I couldn't manage money. That I couldn't control the children. That I didn't understand the simple rules of being an adult properly. He spent 10 years pointing out all of the mistakes I'd made, over and over, with the mistakes becoming more and more exaggerated with each retelling, subtly changing each time, until I didn't even know which version was true.

10 years of someone telling you and showing you that you cannot exist without their support has a powerful effect upon your self esteem and belief in yourself.

Of course it didn't start out like that. Abusers are often wonderful in the start. It is how they draw you in. Had my ex told me when I met him that he wanted full control over my finances, social life and job I'd have laughed in his face and walked away. Had he called me even half of the names that he was using to describe me by the end I'd quite likely have been arrested. He didn't do any of those things though. What he did do was far cleverer than that. He "helped" me.

He'd clean the house when I was out, he cared for dd1. He made a fuss of pets buying them and us gifts and showered us with compliments and affection. He was the perfect man, so obviously when he offered to help me budget, because he was so smart with money and I was so careless, I didn't see this for the groundwork that it was, the start of showing me how useless I was and how I'd never cope without him. I saw it as my boyfriend, best friend and biggest supporter trying to help me build some savings.

The financial abuse started that innocently. What started as an innocent budget plan, escalated slowly, ever so slowly over time to him looking after our joint income while we saved for X. Just for a week at first, then a few weeks. Then the joint income should be paid into an account in his name, but I'd still have the card, to help us, of course, save for a wonderful holiday, he had to look after because I was so careless with money, remember the time I lost £20? My last £20 because I'd wasted all of my wages and he'd graciously and heroically helped me out? No? Neither did I, but he did. Then he should keep hold of the card for a few months and give me an allowance. That way we'd have savings to fall back on, since I was so rubbish at saving. That allowance got smaller and smaller. The few months became longer and longer. The account slowly changed from being "our" account, to his. So slowly that I didn't even see what was happening until he already had full control over all of the family money.

The control over my eating and therefore weight started the same way. What seemed to be genuine concern about how little I ate and how thin I was turned to complete control over everything I ate. It didn't happen overnight, it happened over 10 years. The name calling was the same. Innocent "jokes" slowing escalated to out and out warfare on my self esteem. Criticisms of my parenting started as helping. Helping me with parenting my own child, with an underlying theme of me not being capable.

Yes MN offered invaluable advise and support, but MN did not have 10 years of slowly chipping away at my very sense of self behind it.

I'd didn't leave because over 10 years he'd managed to teach me that I could not cope without him. It would take more than words on a screen and supportive strangers to undo all of that cleverly laid groundwork.

The thought of leaving him and having to parent on my own, run my own finances and even plan my own diet, was terrifying, far worse than staying and coping with the bullying and nastiness. The bullying and nastiness was a known. I knew I could survive that. He'd taught me, over 10 years that I couldn't survive without it. That without him I was incapable of even the most basic life skills.

[mix56]

Doinmecleanin, The bullying and nastiness was a known. I knew I could survive that. He'd taught me . Yes (sad)