H headbutted ds......advice please

[thelineiswhere]

H (definitely not 'd'h) had been drinking bottled beers at home on Sunday afternoon.

He then decided to go to the supermarket as he often does on a Sunday afternoon to buy more bottled beers and some food items for his own personal consumption. (Money is not the issue here, so the shopping thing is a red herring but bear with me).

He was gone for several hours and I suspect he went to the pub for a couple of hours as when he came back he smelt of beer.

I was giving the kids some tea at this point and he dumped his shopping in the kitchen and hung round the table in the dining area adjacent to the kitchen winding the kids up ended up annoying ds in some way and ds told him to go away. H can be very annoying under the influence as he pushes the kids until they snap, I usually walk away but the kids were at the table eating. Anyway he wouldn't go away and was leaning in to them invading their personal space so to speak and ds pushed him away but it was like a hit on h's chest rather than a push and with that h had him pinned up against the wall with a chair and said "d you know what I do to people that hit me..... I headbutt them" and proceeded to bash his head against ds's which bashed back against the wall. Younger child was yelling at h to get off ds and leave him alone.

Ds was shocked and we all kind of yelled at h to stop. He started to tell me it was my fault and if I didn't start to... but never finished his sentence.

I reassured the kids later that h was very wrong to do this and checked ds wasn't injured.

h didn't speak to any of us for the rest of the evening as kids went to bed after a bath/shower.

Has he crossed a line here ? Things have been bad between us, he barely speaks to me at all but I assumed he'd snap out of it eventually like he always does.

[FlossyMoo]

I have read the full thread and I am aware of what the OP as posted.

As I said earlier if a stranger had head butted her DS in the street she would have called the police. Why is it different just because this man is his father.


If children died in your care because you were negligent then I hope to god you have been prosecuted. If they died in your care because of illness or something out of your control or something you couldn't stop then you are not inadequate just human.
However the two bad mothers I have mentioned did nothing to prevent the abuse or death of their children (in baby P's case those in charge of his protection also failed) so there is no comparison.

[dratsea]

ihatethecold, sorry, my only excuse is senility.

Granville72,

Tue 09-Sep-14 20:22:06

"h won't be back home for 2 weeks. he travels a lot for work and is rarely at home Mon-Fri, mostly it's just me and the kids at home.

I told him I would call the police if he didn't stop being abusively drunk but we're both professional types and at least one of us would have serious career/earning capacity damage if social services were involved."

I took this a threat to h but may have misunderstood.

"Would the police automatically involve ss ? "

Yes

"Ds is 12 by the way and having stress of kids being mean to him at school which h has no advice to offer him at all and makes everything about himself. I seriously think he's pissed off that there is a problem and he doesn't know what to do for ds so he gets angry (with the situation) , ironically then ds is in the firing line verbally

I am planning on separation/divorce, (there's no way this is going to get better with "a bit of therapy" or a few sessions at relate) but have reasons for staying at present. I very much doubt others would understand the situation and I'm not wanting to out myself but I've never considered the kids physically at risk before although h is always rough in his horseplay with them which can end in tears and I make the kids aware that h's behaviour is not acceptable when he's being an arse about something and exactly why. The kids are pretty much my sole responsibility unless h is in the mood for playing daddy and time spent with him usually involves him buying them stuff or paying for an exciting activity of some sort."

Safeguarding, definitely, but has still got 5 days. I really hope there will be a plan in place by then and I hope the threat to involve police (and therefore SS) will be enacted if any more drunkenness if/when he returns to family home in 5 days. Separation and divorce is clearly the way ahead and in no way am I supporting this drunk nor am I advising OP not to call Police, SS and even Mumsnet but I am simply offering support to OP and I find I am in a minority of 2 (and a half).

Flossy, many died under my care, inc toddlers. I am therefore an inadequate doctor (and that really hurts when it is the daughter of your best out-patient nurse) but I have always done my best. I know more than most about toddler (baby!) Peter but nothing about the (child?) in Scotland.

[FlossyMoo]

So a mother that attributed to the murder of her toddler is only a very inadequate mother not a bad one
The mother in Scotland who killed her son. Very inadequate mother as well then?

[Granville72]

It's not just the head butt though is it? Without trawling back through 20 odd pages, I'm pretty sure OP has said it's not the first time things have got out of hand and he has been violent / abusive towards the children.

And it wont be the last time either.

It is a Safeguarding Issue and steps need to be taken that this never, ever happens again. And just by telling him to stay away, it's over, don't ever do that again is not the answer.

[ihatethecold]

Dratsea, you make yourself look foolish with that statement!

[dratsea]

"That hopefully means they are few and far between." I would agree with your hope, and I did work in pretty grim places.

"I can think of no other way to describe a mother who allows an adult to head but (sic) her child and then do nothing to ensure it does not happen again." Yes agree, but why do you apply this to OP, as I understand from her post she has 10 days to make formal arrangements and feels that so doing is better use of her time than feeding the vipers, or involving the plod.

"I suppose baby P's mother was just inadequate" Not just - Very

[FlossyMoo]

I am pleased that you haven't met a bad mother in 40 years. That hopefully means they are few and far between.

I can think of no other way to describe a mother who allows an adult to head but her child and then do nothing to ensure it does not happen again. I suppose baby P's mother was just inadequate

[dratsea]

"You may not like it drat but it is a fact."

Sorry, as I posted I am retired and clearly at least 3 years out of date, and I thank you for updating me on the recent changes.

"It doesn't make her a good mother does it?"

No, but I have to say that professionally I never met a bad mother, a very few were inadequate (but doing their best), some were ordinary mothers, many were good mothers, most were great mothers and a few were unbelievably fantastic mothers. I guess I had a lucky 40 years.

[FlossyMoo]

It doesn't make her a good mother does it?

If a stranger in the street head butted and verbally threatened her 12 yo son in front of her I doubt she would ignore it and not call the police. I also doubt anyone on here would tell to NOT call the police.

So why doesn't the same apply just because it was the father. Which IMHO is worse than a stranger. Those who ignore child abuse are just as bad. They enable the abuse to continue when they could stop it. This man has already hit his child. There is nothing to stop him doing it again.

Without a police report he could easily win 50% custody should they split. Who will protect the child then when there is only him and his father?

By not calling the police as soon as she could she runs the risk of being viewed differently if it comes to light later. For example if she leaves him and they go to court for custody. The courts will want to know why the assault was not reported at the time (if she uses it to gain custody/stop contact) and they will also question the mothers ability to protect her children from harm. You may not like it drat but it is a fact.

[dratsea]

Buy = But (sorry)

[dratsea]

Flossy,

"Child abuse is NEVER ok. No matter who is doing it or who is ignoring it no matter what the excuse is. There should be ZERO tolerance regarding the abuse of children."

+1

Buy OP is not ignoring it, but is being told that she is a bad mother for not calling plod, or IMHO even worse, that by not calling them she puts her rights for on going care at risk?

[FlossyMoo]

I love it. Posters get angry at a parent physically assaulting a child and the other parent who stands by and does nothing to protect the children and are called vipers. Yeah because this mother & father should be awarded parents of the year

Child abuse is NEVER ok. No matter who is doing it or who is ignoring it no matter what the excuse is.
There should be ZERO tolerance regarding the abuse of children.

[dratsea]

OP,

I think you are doing OK, sorry about vipers, all the best and and I am with R4roger.

Rocks - how about Red Hot Lava as your new name? (and I agree with your view)

CaptainM, just a thought, what if OP works in A&E?

I am male, horrified by the first couple of posts by OP but even more so by some of the replies. I may be wrong but I get the feeling that OP is well engaged, does not have a lot of time to post here and I do believe that she is making most of her (limited) time to better plan where to go, I hope and expect her to be able to sort it out over next 10 days and I hope she follows up on here for others needing advice in the same position, even, and especially, if they are not professional. FWIT I am (well was=retired) also professional and was the only the member of local NHS Trust Safeguarding with a formal level 2 qualification. (Level 2 just needs full day with hospital/socialwork/plod involved). It was a great day, we had a brilliant facilitator and fantastic head of local SS to really get us to think. Any one who gets offered this course it is really worth doing, and one of the few where experience (over 40) not only got from, but could contribute most to, the workshop.

I must share one contribution (from SS) at the workshop: Allegedly heard in local T**co "Charlene stop fucking swearing"

[GoldfishCrackers]

OP you are still trying to manage the situation. I can understand that.

You are aware your H will make the separation process difficult. What happens when he doesn't accept your plan to supervise contact visits? If he takes you to court to contest supervised access (likely from what you've said) and denies his assault, threatens to accuse you of collusion, what then? You will be in a weaker position if you don't report this now.

Plus, You have already seen that he can assault your DS with you in the room, so what will change when you're separated?

I know it's hard but you know you cannot control him or his actions, and need to involve SS to help keep your DC Safe in the long run.

[emeraldgirl1]

Aaaabbbbcccc oh god do you really think this was made up? :( It really would depress me if someone has gone to all the trouble of concocting something like this just to get a reaction...

[MexicanSpringtime]

mylifeisgood I'm so sorry to hear that.

Mumsnet is teaching me what a privileged childhood I had with a loving mother and brother.

[rumbleinthrjungle]

OP, if you're still reading, you're concerned about the guilt your son may feel if he sees it as his fault that his parents separated.

Please think about the guilt you are placing on him by not reporting this. If he discloses this - and he's twelve, he may well tell an adult, or a friend who tells a parent, this may so easily slip out unless you discuss with him keeping it a secret- he may find that he is responsible for police and social services involvement in the family and he will blame himself for that. If you do discuss with him that he should not tell then he is carrying immense pressure for a twelve year old, and it will be as harmful.

I do understand you are trying to find the smoothest, most painless way through this for all of you, I lived in a similar family myself as a child, but there are as many dangers in trying to smooth it over as there are in reporting it. If you are in a professional field where safeguarding issues are a serious problem, your only recourse is to be absolutely open and be seen to do everything by the book including reporting to the police yourself, proactively.

As others have said, you will also not be able to protect your children from being given to this man for contact without you present if you have not reported it. I'm sorry but your husband has blown the easier options available for you both through his choices. I don't wish to scare you or distress you, just for you to be aware this is as risky to try to cover up as it would be to address it openly.

[dimsum123]

Rawls. Good Idea. I already donate to kidsco but will give a bit extra.

[mylifeisgood]

It wouldn't have been that unusual in our house Mexican.

[kinkytoes]

Horrific.

Hate to think what life is usually like in this household for it to take a headbutt to set off alarm bells.

OP if you are still reading, please get your ds checked out. Head injuries can take days to show symptoms and you can't know by just looking that he's ok.

Then call the police.

[MexicanSpringtime]

And just for trivias sake, is it normal for a fifteen-year-old boy to whack his little sister in the face??

My big brother was very protective of me and only ever hurt me by accident. He wouldn't have done that when he was eight, let alone fifteen.

[Rawls]

I would like to make a suggestion... this thread has been seriously upsetting and strange, and more than a little suspicious.

So - we know that we can't help these particular children, or even if they exist and that is frustrating and heart wrenching: especially as the people they most need to care for them have failed to do so. But children LIKE these boys exist, that we do know, so if we used our collective energy into supporting them.

There are 551 posts on this thread - if we gave a pound for each one to kids company that would be a decent donation right? then at least AT LEAST we are showing our support for children who are being failed everywhere.

It's hard to just do nothing - which is why this thread is so passionate- so this would show the OP we support her, and show a troll that whatever their motive good shit comes from Mumsnet threads!

www.kidsco.org.uk

[Aaaabbbbcccc]

This comes over as being totally made up. It is so obviously 'over the line' why would the OP even need to ask. She was then flummoxed by the speed of replies and depth of feeling of people giving genuine help that she grasped at the AF straw to back off and pretend it was because of AF. Ridiculous.

[AgathaF]

I wonder what the OP wanted to achieve from this thread.