"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

<br />
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.<br />
<br />
This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)<br />
<br />
So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.<br />
<br />
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;<br />
<br />
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'<br />
<br />
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. <br />
<br />
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.<br />
<br />
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. <br />
<br />
You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a><br />
<br />
I started with this book and found it really useful.<br />
<br />
Here are some excerpts:<br />
<br />
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.<br />
<br />
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.<br />
<br />
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:<br />
<br />
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".<br />
<br />
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".<br />
<br />
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."<br />
<br />
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"<br />
<br />
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."<br />
<br />
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.<br />
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YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."<br />
<br />
Helpful Websites<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a><br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a><br />
<br />
More helpful links:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a><br />
<br />
Some books:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Homecoming</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a><br />
<br />
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: <br />
<br />
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."<br />
<br />
Happy Posting

[LadyFlumpalot]

I get really confused Bellasuewow, because sometimes she does lovely things for me, like giving DH £100 recently so that he could take me for a meal and a day trip out. When I miscarried last year she came round to look after DS whilst DH and I were in hospital, she cleaned, cooked my favourite meal and did a huge shop for us.

Then other times she is just so nasty, condescending and belittling.

It's such hard work trying to pre-guess which personality she is going to have.

[GoodtoBetter]

Ladyflumpalot my mother can be very generous indeed, but then it will always be thrown back in my face eventually, even if not for years. It's hard not to feel bad at the moment she's being nice, but I hate feelig beholden to her so always try to refuse.
Also, my mother I think means to be nice, but then when she doesn't get her own way or is annoyed about something her default reaction is to tantrum and throw things back at you, to manipulate and guilt trip. I don't think she is scheming or calculating as such, it's just how she reacts. Her emotional responses are set this way.
It's like before we moved out she said "I can't believe you're doing this to me (refusing to allow her to bitch about DH behind his back), you'll give me a nervous breakdown". To which I told her not to say things like that as it was nothing more than emotional blackmail. Her response was "how can you say these things to me, you're driving me to suicide". I mean, what can you say to that? I think her entire life has involved reacting like this, it's part of her DNA now, martyrdom.

[GoodtoBetter]

yy tangerine

[pumpkinsweetie]

Hi viking i think it was to scare me into giving in, obviously a learnt trait.
Did worry me though as i have no idea whether any of his abuse was documented so obviously i would need proof it this was ever to happen in the future. I do hope it was a moment of madness when he said it as i found it very scary & hurtful aswell as almost ultimatum like, well it must have been when i felt forced to agree to a further visit, which i'm not going through now.

I will stand firm on this & there is no backing down at all. Christmas will be a nightmare but it always was even when we were in contact.

When or if he mentions dc contact again, i am going to say a straight "no" and leave it at that because whilst he is in this cloud of denial there is no breaking through the clouds.

[HellesBellesThinksSometimes]

I agree - they would screw us up a lot less if they were always horrible instead od switching.

Good plan pumpkin - best not to turn it into a discussion which might suggest that you would change your mind.

Day 1 of self-imposed orphanhood and no contact. So far so good :)

This sounds dreadful - I suppose it is dreadful - but it really would be so much easier if they were dead. I could come to terms with it all without the constant fear of what will happen next. Maybe I could even start to remember what was good about them.

[TiffanyTortoise]

Hi
Been lurking for a while but I am finally plucking up courage to post and admit to what's going on with my DP's. I am feeling on the slippery slope back to depression which I've had on and off for years. Depression came to a head 2.5 yrs ago and I've put a lot of work into working out why and I realise low self esteem and letting myself be treated badly by others including DP's is what's the root cause.
I have never been good enough for DP's and I let them go on and on about things that they see as a failure. What's bugging me more recently is that they're doing the same to DS1(but not to his face)and this hurts me so much. He isn't what they expect him to be. He has aspergers syndrome symptoms so he isn't doing what they see as 'normal'. As DP's don't believe in conditions such as Aspergers, ADHD, dyslexia etc I have never voiced my suspicions to them. They think it's poor parenting etc.
He is a fulltime student but struggling with the course, he's not interested in a relationship, or out clubbing, learning to drive etc. He isn't sociable/outgoing and has not tried to get a part time job. They keep having a go at me about all this and there is nothing I can do to change DS1. I love him and accept him as he is. They can't see the many positive qualities that he has. He is waiting on resit results and doesn't feel confident but I am dreading that if he doesn't pass that I'm going to tell DP's and I will get another hard time. I should be focusing on how my DS feels not what they've got to say about it. All my life I've tried to please them but never have. When things have come to a head (usually over DS1) I am told everything is my fault and it's me that's the problem.

I don't know why I'm posting this except I feel I need to. Sometimes I feel life would be easier if I didn't see them anymore.

[HellesBellesThinksSometimes]

Hi TiffanyTortoise. That is very unfair of your parents. No wonder you're anxious and depressed! You are good enough. You are better than that. You are strong and brave. You have dealt with two people treating you badly for years and you are protecting your child. You are everything you should be. Your parents are the ones who aren't good enough because they can't show love.

What sort of relationship would you like to have with them? Do you want to stay in contact? If you do, what level of contact would you want to have. It is very unlikely that they will change so it's a question of finding what you can cope with.

[TiffanyTortoise]

Thanks Helles. You're right, they are unlikely to change. I need to find a way of coping with the relationship. I've been trying to reduce visiting/phone calls down to two visits per month and phone every week. I don't really want to cut contact completely but I don't want to dread having contact with them. I'd like to be able to stand up to them without it being an over the top angry spouting of how much of a disappointment that I am to them. I feel guilty writing this. It's not every visit/call that's bad. I know they won't feel for me/my family as I would like them to feel but wish I could not let it bother me. I want my family/me to be accepted as we are. I can't live up to what they want us to be -we're an average family (which I think is OK to be)
Helles you have come through a lot to get where you are now and sound is if you're making moves to remove yourself from this negativity - so stay strong.

[HellesBellesThinksSometimes]

Just remember - you don't have to tell them anything. If they don't act like someone you would want to tell about the good and bad in your life, don't. Keep it superficial. Ask about them. That should engross them enough to keep them off topics that are important to you. Toxic parents are selfish and self-obsessed. It's all about them so they are a good topic for distraction!!

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Hi Tortoise. It's very tricky, I still long for my parents to approve of my parenting, of me. To feel proud of me, to feel they like me. I've spent years wanting that, trying to earn that and feeling guilty when I say bad things of them. I've begun to break away from that since going NC with my Dad over a year ago. But it took him threatening me, for me to finally go NC. I still see my Mum but it's hard, she does try and guilt trip me into recommencing contact. I see her once a month but rarely speak inbetween. I used to tell her too much and then I was gossiped about with my brothers.

Hels advice is very good.

How you feel is understandable. Try to protect yourself. It's a journey of self awareness on this thread and realising how damaging our parents have been/ are. And it hurts at times.

I've cried many times when I think of how I'm treated and how I long for a loving Father who approves of me and I'll never have that. He hates my son. He's just been diagnosed an Aspie and Mum now says if he'd known when he was younger, maybe he'd never have got so angry with him. I don't think so! Made me so angry at the time. So it's ok to hit a 2 year old if they're NT? Errrr no.

Please feel welcome here. Whatever you choose to do, you'll be supported.

[Phoenixwoman]

So nice to feel like I belong somewhere. Even though everyone's circumstances are different I recognise all of your feelings. Still grieving that close mother-daughter bond and think I always will. Working on confidence is hard, I find I analyse every little thing. For example organised a night out with friends and its been cancelled because it's an important date for one friend which had skipped her mind. Why am I taking this like a personal rejection? I think it's because I had to message them to clarify details and was the last to find out it was cancelled. I never feel like a central character, always on the periphery. A bit like Gunther in Friends.

[HellesBellesThinksSometimes]

Phoenix that's your mother's influence talking. I often feel the same way - that I don't quite belong. I struggle to have close friendships because I am so busy watching for signs of rejection. Luckily, a few years back, I met my best friend. Actually, I wasn't that keen on her to start with but she was there on the darkest day of my life and that is written on my heart. Because of that, whenever I doubt our friendship, I remember that day and overcome my fears. Is there any anchor like that you can remind yourself of when you feel left out?

For a long time, I needed everyone to like me. And to like me more than they liked everyone else or it proved that I wasn't good enough. Madness. Filling a hole left by my parents. There are now a handful of people that I know I matter to. What a thing to be blown away by! There are people I matter to. The real me. And one of them, for the past few months, for the first time ever, is me. My view of me matters and it cannot be dictated by my parents. Nor anyone else. Wow! Bit of a rant but hopefully it shows how far counselling has brought me and gives hope to those who are just starting the journey to accepting they are not the sum of their parents' opinions.

Phoenix you matter. You were invited on the night out. That means you matter to your friends. That you are someone who it is pleasant to spend time with. There has to be someone who is the last to be told and sometimes it is your turn. Don't take that as a rejection. It isn't - there are 7 billion people on this planet but it was you who was chosen as a friend by that group of people. Each of them want to spend time with you. Focus on that. Focus on their regard for you.

I'm sorry that I've gone a bit therapy-speak but it's what I was thinking.

[ThunderbumsMum]

hellesbelles that is a great post.

It is awful to hear everyones' sad stories but comforting in some way to see it's most likely my mother is mental, rather than me being the awful, 'difficult' person she always tells me I am.

This is part of an email I received a couple of days ago:

I understand that you told [dm's husband] that [one of dm's previous husbands] [irrelevant, harmless story that is true]. Where do you get such rubbish from? Why do you make up such daft and hurtful stories? This is a complete fantasy on your part. Your behaviour in making up such stories (of which there have been a number) really upsets me and I wish you would not do it. Its purpose, as I read it, is to belittle and humiliate, and not surprisingly, I don?t like it. You wondered while we were here why I was so upset by the [incident when I was 14, me and siblings and dm's then husband made a joke about an item of her clothing that looked silly, that item of clothing came up in conversation last week when dm's current husband was there and I mentioned she used to have one]. You seem bemused by my irritation with you. I will tell you why ? because your amusement at that time was not at any time, real amusement. After all why is having Gucci more acceptable? Its purpose then, which I remember well, and was behaviour in which you indulge in from time to time, was to mock and not to tease. The so-called laughing on your part (and only your part though your tried hard at the time to get the other children to join in) went on and on and on and its effect was cruel and its intention was to humiliate ? and you succeeded. It may be that that was not your intention but that is how it was interpreted by me at the time.


I spoke to my dsis about this today, she said it's not true and not to let it upset me. I was thinking maybe I should respond but I feel like it's probably not worth it. Over the last 25 years she has alternated between gas lighting me and telling me that the fairly serious abuse I suffered (which she enabled) was my fault because I am such a difficult person

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Did you organise this night out Phoenix? And then the whole thing was cancelled just because one friend couldn't make it?

Did you only find out from clarifying details close to the event?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post. Hence all the questions but I'd have felt deeply hurt in your shoes.

Is this the first time this has happened?

[ThunderbumsMum]

Sorry, I pressed post too soon. Des anyone have advice as to whether it is really worth engaging any more? I just can't be arsed with it all.

Her current husband also sent me an email, suggesting she and I go to therapy together. She has such a fundamental lack of insight in to her behaviour, it is completely pointless. I have already had a bit of therapy, which was enormously helpful; the more I read, the less I think I have anything to gain from pretending our relationship can be worked out.

[HellesBellesThinksSometimes]

Thunder I agree, not responding seems like the best plan. My counsellor talked a lot about the drama triangle and how to avoid it and escape from it.

Your mother is going for the pity-me guilt trip. Even if her recollection were accurate, you were a child. It would have been up to her, as the adult, to respond appropriately and not bear a grudge. Her recounting her version of this long-ago event just shows up how maladjusted her view of her life is. Remember that - she is manipulating you.

What's brilliant is that you are not letting her. You are not some little child who blindly believes everything you are told. You are strong and resourceful and respectful: you felt she had got it wrong, you checked with your sister and you resisted the urge to tell her she was wrong and, so, avoided joining in with her drama. That is fantastic. Well done. I am really pleased for you

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

That's a horrible e-mail Thunder. She thinks she's got you all figured out and can see what you're like. But it's not true at all. Such a poisonous e-mail to receive, your heart must've been racing.

What an awful thing to say about you. Please don't respond. And I don't see the point in therapy as you're wrong and she's right, apparently. It would achieve nothing. I wouldn't engage anymore.

It's hard though. I used to want to fix everything, say sorry, even when I didn't think I needed to, just to make peace. But these people are toxic and they'll hurt you again and again.

I used to want to explain myself but it's wasted on people like this. They see what they want to see and we keep getting hurt.

As you try to disengage, the onslaught may get worse for awhile.

[masquerade]

I hope its okay for me to post on this thread, because my own parents aren't toxic parents.

I started reading this thread because my daughter has recently decided not to see her dad anymore. She's 10 years old. My relationship with her dad ended when she was 2, I was very young at the time, it was an emotionally abusive relationship. A lot of what is posted on this thread about how your parents make you feel and the common things they say and do I can relate to. I wanted him to be a good dad to our daughter, I encouraged the relationship in the hope that he would be. When she was younger he was very good with her, he always cared for her reasonably well and he was very good at playing with her (better than I was actually). However as she has got older he seems to have become more critical etc of her and a couple of years ago I came to the conclusion that I was right all along about who he was. At that time it didn't seem like I could say our daughter couldn't see him anymore, I didn't have enough proof that what he was doing was harmful, but I warned him if he continued with his behaviour then he was going to damage their relationship. It recently came to a head when he said some nasty things to her, she was really upset and decided she didn't want to see him for a bit - at that time it was only a temporary thing, she did want to sort things out and see him again she just wanted some time to 'get over it' - although she did suggest that maybe we could ring childline and they could stop him being nasty

It escalated when I was forced to discuss it with him as it was time for her to see him and she still didn't want to go (I hadn't said anything up until that point, partly because I avoid conflict with him because it still upsets me and gets under my skin, but also I knew he would deny it and accuse me of being unreasonable in allowing her to decide not to see him so it seemed pretty pointless). He reacted as predicted, said she was lying, I was being ridiculous by letting her dictate arrangements, she was just manipulating me etc. Then he decided he would only see her when she apologised for lying and for the hurt she had caused.

Dd was fairly outraged at this suggestion and just decided she wouldn't see him anymore. I say 'just decided' because it really did seem like a very easy decision, she said she knew she risking him being nasty to her if she saw him again anyway. Over the next couple of days it became apparent that she was very angry with him, and now she just doesn't want to talk about it.

I've mentioned it since and she's still fairly reluctant to talk, she doesn't have anything she wants to say to him and she would like to forget he exists, she's deleted any photos she had of him and she even mentioned about changing her name. He's now blaming me for the whole thing, for ruining their relationship and demanding he wants to see her. I've had a solicitor's letter requesting contact be reinstated and for me to attend mediation.

I have been in touch with a children's counselling service, do you think it would be a good idea to encourage my dd to go and try and talk about it?

I've had an initial assessment myself with a counsellor through a domestic abuse organisation, even that very first appointment, which wasn't really counselling, made me feel better, it came at a time where he making me doubt myself a lot, and for someone to say 'yes that is emotional abuse you're describing' was a massive relief. I've talked very little about it and still have the overwhelming feeling that I won't be believed and people will think I'm exaggerating (e.g I know that I need to say my reason for declining mediation is his emotionally abusive behaviour, but the thought of him getting that letter makes me feel sick). This all makes me realise how important it is that dd feels believed in what she is saying, and I hate to admit that I've questioned her - at times when he is so adamant he didn't say those things, but I always end it with 'I believe you'.

Although I was young when we had our relationship given that I would have said I had a stable upbringing and a good sense of self worth and self esteem, I can't believe how long I put up with the emotional abuse, how much he wore me down and how fucked up I still am 8 years later. I'm terrified to think of the effect he could have on my daughter, who is so young and vulnerable, if this is what she grows up with. I'm also terrified that I will deal with it wrongly and add to it all.

I suppose part of what I want from dd seeing a counsellor, as well as someone for her to talk to and get her feelings straight in her and strengthen the belief that he is in the wrong not her, is reassurance that I'm doing the right thing. That its right to let her make this decision. And that nothing I'm doing is making it worse.

I can see that a lot of you have stopped contact with your toxic parent/s as adults, do you wish you had that opportunity as a child? Or do you feel they were still your parent/s and having them in your life was better than nothing?

I regret so much that I didn't just listen to my gut instinct and the advice of someone who could see him for exactly what he was and get as far as way as possible 8 years ago.

Sorry for such a long post, especially when its not technically the right place, I hope it doesn't cause any upset/offence.

[HellesBellesThinksSometimes]

Wow Masquerade what a situation.

DS has counselling periodically - he was abandoned by his father after our marriage broke down - mostly for him to be able to talk it through without worrying about upsetting anyone. I didn't say he had to go but I explained why I thought he would find it useful.

Your DD sounds mature and resolute so, surely, if it went to family court, they would take her views into account?

[ThunderbumsMum]

masquerade what is the legal situation? Is there a contact order in place? How mature for her age is your daughter?

If there is no contact order and your daughter is mature and could be considered capable of making an appropriate decision then you have options but otherwise, she may have more problems in the long run if she causes the upset of refusing to see him and is then forced to go anyway. Would she say to someone 'official' that she doesn't want to see him because he is unkind to her?

From personal experience, I think no contact would be best, if that is what she wants. But obviously, that is based on my experience, not hers. I also think you should consider carefully whether your dd really needs to go down the counselling route at this stage. She will probably be fine with your obvious love and support rather than making a big deal out of it by calling in a counsellor. Does that make sense? I'm not saying that what your ex-p has done is not a big deal, at all, but for a 10 year old girl, I wonder if it is helpful to make a drama out of it.

[ThunderbumsMum]

Shit, that came out wrong. I hope you can see what I am (clumsily) trying to say. And I am sorry for you and your dd being in such a horrible situation.

[ThunderbumsMum]

And thankyou very much helles and momerats for your support