Can I forgive this much deceit?

[alphacourse]

I am trying to figure out whether I can stay,have couples counselling, and try and work things out. Or....whether it is just too much betrayal and deceit. My mind swings between the 2 on a twice daily basis.

Background: DP has cheated on me with 2 women. He met with each one 4/5 times during my recent pregnancies. He has also met up for drinks with a few more. He met then through married affair websites.

I found out about the websites 10 weeks ago, and about the women 3 weeks ago. He followed the usual script of denial, deleting, minimising etc. Then I was contacted by a woman and he had to come clean.

He has started psychotherapy to deal with his issues. He says it was about the buzz of getting girls to be impressed by him.

How do I work out what to do for the best? Obviously he is desperate to work things out. I am prepared to listen at the minute. We have 3 DC. 2 are very small. Help me to make sense of this please!

[maleview70]

Would he have gone to therapy had he not been found out?

Very much doubt it......

[ChippingInWiredOnCoffee]

For someone who claims to be highly educated you are being particularly stupid.

He is sorry he got caught.

He is sorry he might lose the convenience of being with you (being looked after)

He got away with it before.

He knows you feel you want to make it work for the kids sake.

He is playing you - he doesn't want to change, he wants things to go back to how they were and given the way things are going he has every chance of achieving that.

He is ridiculous I justified it to myself that it was as safe a way as possible of getting the kick that I needed and not hurting my family and you as it was with like minded people that were also looking for a bit of a buzz I mean, what the actual fuck??????

Wise up

He will not change.

you are better than this - act like it!!

[Branleuse]

he'll be trying to get the buzz of winning you back, rather than any intent not to cheat again. You are wasting your time.

[AnyFucker]

yep, bran

from on e"buzz" to another

and when the thrill/challenge (although you are not exactly making it very difficult...) of winning you back wears off as it inevitably will, he will start looking outside your relationship again

future behaviour can be predicted by past behaviour and this bloke has red flags all over him

like mad said, this nobber has a howling, swirling void where integrity and decency ought to be

it must be horrible inside his head...but that is for him to sort out, and not on your time

[dreamingbohemian]

Maybe it's possible he can change, but even then, it doesn't mean that you can make things work. You can't erase what he's done.

Instead of asking yourself whether he can change, maybe ask yourself whether you can be ok in this relationship ever again, whether he changes or not. Are you willing to put in so much effort to getting past this, even though you haven't done anything wrong? Are you willing to learn how to cope with distrust and anger and all the other emotions he will continue to evoke in you for years to come?

Don't you think you deserve a better life than this?

By focusing on whether he can change, it continues to make it all about him.

[Cherriesarelovely]

Sorry Op what a hideous situation. I've comitted the cardinal sin of not reading the whole thread but emphatically NO you cannot trust this idiotic man. You undoubtably deserve so much more.

[onefewernow]

I agree about Wobbly red flags, namely he has no friends, he is ashamed, he feels the need to deceive in order to get an ego boost.

Those are really deep set issues which it would take a lot of hard and sustained work to address.

I also agree that the change would be better if he were not present in your home, for numerous reasons mentioned by others.

On the other hand, I don?t think it is true that people cannot change sufficiently, and I do think that getting caught can act as a catalyst. Clearly, its better for someone to come to realisation by other means, but many of us in different ways come to change from enormous catalytic shocks of some sort or another.

My experience of an H who was sex chatting OW online and exchanging photos for some years is that it has acted as a catalyst. He stopped 21 months ago.

However, but........

It is much harder than the philanderer realises
Many of the changes he needs to make are not about sex, but about his whole attitude to life, you, others.
That is a great deal of work for the philanderer
It is inevitably diverting for the betrayed spouse, even when you try for it not to be, and I assume even tougher if the children are younger.
You would have to be prepared to police yourself not to police him- the urge to check and snoop etc etc if very strong, I found, even if that is not natural to you
Every small failure takes you back to the beginning.

I agree totally with Wobbly that you must resist every urge to look at his ?whys? and act as his support and counsellor. I didn?t do that well at all at the start, for months, and thoroughly regret it. It is simply not your problem, issue or business, and you can never be his mum or therapist, even if you were beforehand to some extent.

I agree that you need to focus solely on what you want to do next, and also give yourself time to do that. You don?t need to make a decision now, and in some ways it may not be good to, as you are too stunned, let alone distracted by a new baby.

I think I would ask him to set himself up elsewhere, leave the door open whilst you think, and let the next steps emerge.

The last point I would make is that you have not been together for so long, it seems. That would possibly have made a difference if it were me. As it happened we were 15 years together before the infidelity started and 21 before I discovered it, and with teenagers who had opinions to contribute. Even then, we moved house and partly as I bore in mind that leaving him at a later date, if necessary, would be easier to do with a smaller mortgage.

[HomageToCannelloni]

He may be able to change, who knows, but he will never change within the confines of your relationship, because if you let him stay, somewhere deep down he will feel you are able to be treated badly. Then, after time, when all this has settled down and he has you convinced that he is different, and when the drama that he feeds on has died down, he will get bored again, and he will look outside your marriage to distract himself from that boredom.

What if he does that just when you truly need him? If your parents are terminally ill or god forbid your kids or you... What if its when your kids are sitting their sats, or a levels, or finals at uni and hou dont feel you can leave because of that...

If you cannot trust him when things are going well and you have a good sex life what is going to happen when you are under extreme pressure, or if your lose your libido. If you had a car accident and could never walk again would he stick by you? Would you be 'enough' then for him not to stray? This is what will be on your mind if you not make him leave.

If you do make him leave he MAY by some miracle, realise what an asshole he is and truly change. I sincerely doubt it tbh from what you have shared, but there is more chance if you kick him out of your life and make him work for you than if you just let him stay. It's cliched pop psychology, but in 90% of relationships I've seen crumble because of infidelity, it's been leaving which has truly given the wake up call needed.

[Lweji]

He has used it to validate himself - the need for recognition and admiration.

Assuming this is true, he won't get any recognition and admiration from you now, I'm sure.
So, he'll be (is already?) back on it.

[HomageToCannelloni]

And fwiw. I honestly believe that your children will cope better if you split when they are younger than later. At this stage you are their world, when they are older his leaving will be much, much harder.

[Wellwobbly]

Wisey - "No-one knew I'd made a choice to stay with a man who could profess to love me but could lie, lie, lie and lie. But everyone knew the day I found out about second OW (that I know of) and whether he's a changed man or not is neither here nor there to me. It's what he did to OUR marriage which matters.

By the way. My ex had therapy whilst he was having the affair and lied all through that too. He lied to his OW. He lied to our DC's. He DID blame me. "

Me too! I have only really just accepted (found OW again, after he profusely regretted his affair 4 years ago - get the split) that 'this' is not something that can be negotiated or connected with, and nor do I want to, any longer.

OK Alpha, if you do not want to get married, how are you going to protect yourself moving forward? What about accommodation, I hear that the CSA allocations are beyond pathetic.

Will you be OK?

[Cherriesarelovely]

Homage, some of your post reminded me so much of a friend of mine who used to cheat on all her boyfriends. I was so shocked when she told me she secretly despised one bf because he forgave her hence "allowing"her to behave like that!

[Lweji]

Regarding marriage, alpha, you'd better get legal advise on it.
Splitting up becomes so much more difficult, and there would be the costs too. You wouldn't be able to use legal aid, unless there was DV or abuse.

And it would be a mockery of the vows, IMO.

Only if you are prepared to believe him and make a serious go of your marriage (or accept an open marriage).

Sometimes we have to accept our losses, rather than put unnecessary burdens on our lives.

[Cherriesarelovely]

Btw she has now been happily married for 10 years and told me she would never cheat on her dh because he made it absolutely clear at the beginning that if shever cheated that would be it and she believes him.

[BicBiro]

lets break this down

1. man has void (we ALL have a void to some extent)
   
2. man temporarily fills void with loving partner and kids
   
3. man discovers actually this doesnt work longterm
   
4. man decides NOT to look within himself to see what the cause of this might but goes off shagging instead. so therefore, causing his family pain is preferable to him experiencing his own void
   
5. man gets found out
   
6. man experiences pain at getting found out with the realisation that his void soon might having nothing to fill it. shit!! must avoid at all costs! man soothes it by putting all energy into attending therapy and offering platitudes of 'winning' partner back and 'proving' he has changed
   
7. partner gives him second chance. man feels soothed.
   
8. void is again temporarily filled with bliss at having partner back and being loved again (phew! close one!)
   
9. man discovers actually this doesnt work longterm.....
   
   and so on.
   
   if he really wanted to change he would have realised the void is about him BEFORE he shagged other women and taken steps to sort it out then. doing it as a reaction is just shite and really is an insult to your intelligence. it's a box ticking exercise, that's all, on the List Of Thing's Cheaters Need To Do Once Found Out in order to resume normality.
   
   a man trying to 'win' you back makes you a prize, not a person. you are a 'thing'.
   
   Please open your eyes and see what the rest of us are seeing.

[Oscalito]

He used a married site so as to 'not hurt his family.' ???

How noble.

I'm sorry, I know it must be hell to accept, but you are dealing with a manipulative, self-pitying little turd.

Your life will be much, much easier without something as vile as him in it.

[cannotfuckingbelievethis]

Mr Ryangoslingspants is far from perfect but I utterly and totally believe 100% that he has never cheated on me. If I ever found out he had, I could probably forgive him and I'd probably still love him but I could never trust him and for that reason we'd be fucked. It would be over.

Can you ever really trust him again after this ?

[onefewernow]

I totally agree that the void is about 'him' (or her, for that matter, if it is a woman doing it).

Most people choose not to address the void. They may in counselling address the symptom of the void, eg infidelity.

But people can recognise and address it, if they are really prepared to go there. And at any stage, I think.

It is just that most dont, or think that they have when they have not.

[BicBiro]

lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say he does really want to address it.

it will take years. it's HARD to do this. it involves the addressing and undoing years of often painful beliefs, thoughts and behaviours which so far have facilitated him in avoiding that void.

plus whilst he has you hanging around he will never feel the void completely - because you will be fillling it in some way, however small. enabling him.

and what do you do in the meantime, over these years? you get to support him on his life journey of his? mothering him, reassuring him when he's down, being there for him.

where are you in all of this? are you scared of the void this will leave in you if you ask him to leave? are you both avoiding your voids?

[onefewernow]

One should be doing nothing of the sort. What you do is check eradicate any enabling behaviour which you already had in you, and get on with your life.

As I said upthread.

It isnt easy, and certainly I am not advocating it. Whether the betraying spouse changes or not, the other one does tend to. Believe me. Even last week, Wobbly said she did not regret the four years, as she changed herself so much, and learned so much.

The issue is, not can we guarantee it wont happen again, because we can not.

It is rather, whether we feel at this stage it is possible, there is evidence (too soon to say after a few weeks), and whether ^there are enough reasons to stay or enough benefit in the relationship/situation for us to decide to stay. At this stage.

Nobody can decide that for you.

It is simply not the case that once a cheater means always a cheater.


And even though people who have not gone through this have very valid views and one kind of clarity, it is simply not the same as being in the situation. And everyone's circumstances are different.

But people should stay with their eyes open, and most certainly take steps to protect themselves. A post nup is a fantastic idea, and that would test him. I wish I had had it suggested to me.

OP, let him gamble on himself with his future and money. You will be doing so, if you stay, it is true.

[alphacourse]

I have thought and thought about what you have all said. You are right. I am not in love with HIM. I am in love with who I THOUGHT he was.

Short term - we rent out house (bleddy pricey it is too - over 2.5k per month!). I get SMP at the minute until end of sept. I would get housing benefit until then. The min he would have to pay according to CSA calc is 1.3k per month. I also get maintenance for DC1. I could manage - I would HAVE to manage! We are about to sell my car and get something more tax and fuel efficient. I will start to make my plan.

[TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong]

We will all hold your hand and cheer you on. And pass the tissues and gin when they are needed.

You can do this.

[BicBiro]

well done alphacourse. its great to hear you are making decisions based on your needs right now. let him sort himself out.

keep posting.

[Lweji]

Yes, you can.

:D