Why are we (mostly) monogamous? Is it meant to be this way?

[CookieRookie]

I've been musing over this for a while. I know so many people whose marriages have ended, read so many threads about affairs, cheating, fantasizing about someone else outside of the marriage.

I can't for a minute imagine ever DH or me having an affair but who can? Who ever on their wedding day thinks "oh I'll enjoy this while it lasts because some day one or other of us is going to cheat". Yet it happens. Why? Is it that marriage has lost it's, I can't think of the word but sacredness or something. Are we marrying to soon? Are we conforming to a societal norm without really considering the consequences? Is one partner for the rest of your life just not good enough anymore or was it never good enough and we humans decided it was taboo or immoral to live a polygamous or polyandrous life and so we settled into a acceptable norm.

The list of reasons for marriage breakups could be infinite but my real pondering in all of this is - are we just not meant to be monogamous but are reared to believe this is how it should be (nurture) or are we absolutely supposed to be (nature) but are failing on quite a grand scale?

I have no reason to fear DH could be now or would ever cheat nor have I any desire to cheat on him but sometimes I can't help the feeling that the bubble is going to burst, that it is somehow inevitable because monogamy is just a made-up ideal.

[AnEerieAirOfHorror]

Just throwing this in.

My mum told me that if everyone was shagging around;

1. Std's would kill more people
   
2. Half Brothers and Sisters would make babies and they would be genticaly flaured/ inbred
   
3. What would happen to self disaplin and selfrespect? Would there be more killings as jelousy run wild?
   
4. Whole communities would be related as you have to be close physacly to shag so the gene pool would srink and not in a good way.
   
   In history with no medical intervention death from stds and birth would be high so marrage was passed as law to provent illness and conditions passing gentically.
   
   Marrage helped civilation and formed a structure to follow. It is possable to be with only one partner but it takes work and commitment by both partners.
   
   It also helps to pick the right person to be married to and to accept that you dont control the other person only yourself and its ok to love someone even if they might hurt you. Its only your conduct you control. I like personal responsability and i chose to marry.

[Helltotheno]

I believe monogamy is the best set-up for stable, functional, emotionally healthy families.

See the problem with that view is that, while it may be true in the absolute best case scenario, it's still largely aspirational. People, in practice, don't seem capable of making it work. Society needs to recognise that the best setup for stable, emotionally healthy children is to have people in their lives who respect and trust each other in the first instance, out of which flows all the positives for children. Monogamy is not necessarily a required basis for that scenario.

[Helltotheno]

My mum told me that if everyone was shagging around

How did we go from monogamy not necessary being the only way, to everyone shagging around?
There is a happy medium you know, in the same way that there's a happy medium between being teetoal and a raving alcoholic (for most people)...

[MooncupGoddess]

For me the argument for society-wide monogamy is similar to the argument for communism. They're both perfectly nice ideas and if they suit you then great. No one is saying that people shouldn't be in monogamous marriages, or set up a commune where everything is shared. The problem comes when those ideals are extrapolated to society as a whole, where the evidence suggests they just won't work for many people and families.

(Curiously, the right-wingers who are most down on communism as an ideology that is unrealistic about human nature are the least likely to criticise heteronormative monogamy for the same reason.)

[WarmFuzzyFun]

Mooncup, are you SGB in disguise

[MooncupGoddess]

No, but I do harbour a minor internet crush on SGB I am more wishy washy than her though and more conservative about porn and things like that. I don't have a problem with 'mundanes' at all, only with people who think that everyone else should live and feel exactly like them.

[CookieRookie]

"Because what you're saying is that your fidelity is controlled by your feelings for your partner and not by your feelings about yourself"

I can see why anyone would come to that conclusion based on the sentence I wrote so I should have elaborated. There are lots of different reasons I wouldn't cheat and certainly one of them is that I have self-respect after many years of self-destructive behaviour.

I was very promiscuous before I had dd. During that time I lost friends who labelled me a slut. My thinking was "fuck you, I can sleep with whomever I want and as many as I want as long as I'm not hurting anyone and am being safe". I thought why is a man a stud and can go around boasting about how many he's slept with but if I do it I'm a slag? There was no logic in that for me. I was exploring my sexuality and having fun. Well at least that's what I thought. I was destroying myself according to my therapist and I still don't understand why but that's another thread, something to do with not having my father in my life. I don't like my brain being picked apart and searching for answers in my past but I keep going in the hopes there'll be some lightbulb moment where I get me, who knows.

I wonder if my fear of DH becoming emotionally involved with someone else has it's roots in my feelings of abandonment by my father. I wonder is that why a sexual affair is less threatening to me because I don't hold it in as high a place as I do trust and love.

My biggest fear is that I see sex as unimportant because of childhood experiences. Do I not understand sex? Am I different to all of you? When I told my mother I felt like she went crazy. Not because it had happened right under her nose but because I knew it was wrong and I confided in a friend who persuaded me to tell her. She was more angry that I told someone else. Sadly he wasn't the only one. I don't want to talk about it but it scares me to think they damaged me mentally. I wonder if I fully expect DH to have an affair because somewhere in me I believe that's what men do. Of course women do too but my experiences with family and friends has never involved the woman leaving.

[Charbon]

Why do you think your behaviour was self-destructive? Was there behaviour that was self-destructive other than the behaviour you attribute to exploring your sexuality?

Was your therapist saying that promiscuity is a self-destructive behaviour in and of itself, or was she acknowledging that you yourself felt destroyed by your own behaviour?

The point of that is that if you didn't feel destroyed by yourself, the behaviour can't be labelled as self-destructive. What might have been destructive on the other hand, were others' reactions and double-standards - and I include the therapist in that.

I think it takes time to decide what sex means to you as an individual, but it's a mistake to project your own values about it on to a partner or anyone else. So if you feel sex is unimportant and can regard it as a discrete activity without emotions involved, your partner might be someone who cannot. If you've also learnt some erroneous messages about men-as-a-group being more capable of having sex without emotional involvement, this can further distort that projection.

Lots of women can have sex without emotional involvement. Lots of men cannot. You and your partner might be in those different groups simply because of your individual stories and scripts about sex and love.

[OneMoreChap]

It's dreadful who a woman has lots of sex is labeled a slut, while in general a man is labeled "bit of a lad" or so on.

Often, men leave because they aren't the primary child-carers - or believe they can't keep the house and children...

CookieRookie from bitter experience, if you stay communicating with your husband, and you respect each other he's less likely to to have an affair; some men do [I was one] but by no means all.

[Charbon]

....and I would say that if cookie communicates with her husband, stays invested in her relationship and respects him, she is less likely to have an affair.

and if her husband communicates with cookie, stays invested in his relationship and respects her, he is less likely to have an affair.

What cookie can't do is prevent her husband from having an affair and he can't prevent her infidelity either. You can only prevent your own.

[CookieRookie]

I've been to many therapists and they all see my promiscuity from a very young age as bad in some way. That I was doing it deliberately as a way of self-harm or confirmation of a deep belief that I was bad.

To be honest I'm not sure I believe all that. I still remember at the time that I liked it, I didn't feel bad I felt young and free and in control. That's why I miss my appointments sometimes. I can't be arsed to try to work out exactly what the hell he's trying to make me see.

Thankfully DH and I are very open and honest with eachother so I can talk to him about anything. Interestingly though Charbon reading your last post has reminded me that it's always me who brings extramarital possibilites into the conversation. DH will say "oh yeah sometime we could do xy or z" but he never instigates the discussion which leads me to winder which of two things is happening - am I looking for a way to scratch an itch without betrayal or am I so convinced he will leave some time that I think giving him the okay to sex outside the marriage will somehow prevent it.

I've very aware of blabbering on and not making much sense. I'm just writing as I'm thinking.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Cookie are you sure you are with the right therapist? I don't think having a large number of sexual partners is self destructive in itself, though realise that it's just a snapshot we are getting on here.

[Ilovemyteddy]

Charbon said:

"I think everyone is capable of straying, but a lot depends on how a person's ego is defined and their own self-awareness. For some people, their egoes are disproportionately defined by being sexually desirable to others and nothing else quite hits the spot as a life-buzz. For others it's a slow-burning realisation that age and fading looks have dwindled those reactions and this depressing bit of self-awareness hits home when there are likely to be other life pressures mounting, such as ageing parents, children reaching independence, reaching a lower career pinnacle than was hoped for and a level of comfortable safety in their longstanding relationships."

I absolutely agree with this ^^

I've had two affairs, one physical and one emotional, and what Charbon has written is exactly what happened to me, although I wasn't aware of needing that 'life-buzz', or of the realisation about age and other pressures mounting until my affairs had ended, and I had done a lot of work on myself to get to a level of self-awareness that made me realise what my motivations for cheating were. I didn't acknowledge those flashpoints that Charbon talks about and was, therefore, surprised by my behaviour as I was, and am, still happily married. My affairs were all about me , not my marriage and therefore the only thing I can "affair-proof" is myself.

Charbon also said:
"If ... you decide that you won't cheat because you love and respect yourself and know that would be eroded if you deceived and lied to others, the resolve comes from within you and not external sources or people."

This is absolutely right. It's all about understanding yourself and the choices that you choose to make.

[JackieLanaTurn]

I have been married for 21 years and neither my husband nor I have strayed as far as I know. I used to worry that my self control was so poor that if I met someone handsome who tried to chat me up, I wouldn't be able to refuse, but it happened at the weekend at a bar. A very handsome man started dancing with me and was getting very up close and personal. He kept looking into my eyes, but I was so busy giggling and asking for help from my friends that I couldn't have flung a fling with him for a pension. It probably also helped that I was wearing my granny pants :) No-one wants to start a fling when they're wearing granny pants!

I'd say the thing that keeps us together is an over-riding feeling of loyalty and love. There's also the fear of losing our family and our great life together. And my 11 year old would seriously hate whichever one of us did a runner.

I don't know if one of those factors overrides the others or not. I just know that we are both committed to our life together.

[Mayisout]

I would say that men being labeled 'a bit of a lad' is pretty dated. I would have throttled my DS had he been a bit of a lad because of the risk of unwanted or unplanned DCs. (also not sure that women are labelled a slut so much nowadays, except by the men who would want sex with her).

The problem with non-monogamy is that it is bringing in other people into an already tricky arrangement. So two people decide they want to marry, then further on down the line, one or both think they will have sex with someone else, but what if the someone else expects it to lead to a long-term relationship/ babies / becomes disgruntled with their own partner because of what happened? The chances of extra-marital relationships involving 4 people enhancing all 4 partners' lives is slim. Though possible, just unlikely, so all in all the happier outcome is probably that the 4 all remain monogamous.

Also I think the claims that women can now provide adequately on their own for their children is ok in theory but really not often the case in practise. There is the loss of earnings whilst minding small dCs and the cost of childcare to come out of the mother's earnings, then the demands of the children being seen to by one parent (unless there is a live in child carer). Plus the extra housework generated by DCs being the responsibility of one full-time worker, though a cleaner could be employed. So women can be the single child rearer but they need to earn a high income to pay for help. This would therefore also be a reason to encourage monogamy so that there is a partner to contribute.

Without the help of plastic surgery we are unlikely to remain the handsome men and pretty women we are in our twenties. Balding and greying hair, saggy flesh are expected. The effects of ageing and acceptance of our mortality are things we can share together in a long term relationship. The risk of acute ill health is always there too. Plus acceptance of the gradual loss of hearing and memory, we can support our patner more easily if both are going through these changes together.

So perhaps the grass appears greener but, in the end, it's easier, and, because you don't know what the future brings, safer to stay with the one person.

[CookieRookie]

TheDOS sorry I do realise I'm probably drip feeding. I don't mean to but it's for two reasons. I didn't namechange so I'm trying to be careful about what I say but it's safe to say there were times when I put myself in situations that would be shocking to most people and because of those times the regular promisicuity get bunched in with them and it's all judged the same. The other reason I may be drip feeding is that I'm just typing as I'm thinking.

I feel quite conflicted and confused today.

[CookieRookie]

I've gone way off topic, sorry

Thanks for all you replies. I mentioned charbon a few times but I did read and appreciate all your opinions.

[Charbon]

I don't think you should reveal anything you don't want to Cookie but if I were your therapist I'd gently encourage you to revisit the past and ask yourself whether you were actually the victim of unacceptable behaviour by others who should have treated you with respect and dignity regardless of the situations you chose to be in. If anyone broached your consent boundaries for example, those people are to blame - not you.

Your motivations for instigating those conversations with your partner are worth analysing, but just bear in mind that your partner might not be able to scratch an itch without experiencing emotional involvement and that you too might have changed. Even then, what people like to believe they are capable of doesn't always translate to reality.

[dontlaugh]

Thank you Cookie, your honesty is very clear to me and I hope you can find a therapist who can enable you to carry on with your journey, you sound like you didn't have an easy time of it when younger and from a selfish point of view you have given me some food for thought. I love this thread, so glad it popped up and the non judgeyness is simply delightful.

[AbbyRue]

An excellent thread with so much brilliant posts. I need to gather my thoughts but am posting now to mark my place!

[OneMoreChap]

Mayisout Mon 29-Oct-12 15:13:43
also not sure that women are labelled a slut so much nowadays, except by the men who would want sex with her

Really? Really?

Sorry, think you're wrong.

[Mayisout]

Yes, good point OMC but I would discount the police constable's views as those of an ignorant sexist so not worthy of note.

What I said 'except by the men who would want sex with her' surely applies to someone like that police constable, he thinks that girls with low cut tops and short skirts are looking for men to have sex with????? Pleeeese, dated or what?

Though I accept there are probably alot of them around.

[scorpiomyrtlock]

I do agree with others who said that you cannot affair proof your marriage only yourself. Where I disagree is that the affair only makes you feel worse. This is probably very controversial but I am only being honest as someone who has strayed. I actually felt fantastic about myself. I did not sleep with the guy thinking that he would fall in love with me or offer me anything other than a couple of fun nights. But I left his room feeling a million dollars -like there was a part of myself I had forgotten about that had come out and hadn't died after all. I still have not, frankly, got to the point where the affair has made me feel bad. This is mainly I know because I have not been discovered. It would be completely different I am well aware if my h had found out and kicked me out of the house.

The not feeling bad thing is something I am finding very difficult and have posted about elsewhere. It indicates that there is something in me that is still craving this and I haven't come to terms with it yet. But this is off topic, I think the point is that if people are having affairs and being discrete, this could easily become an addiction - I can see how it can happen, and it is definitely not only men who do this but women too. Its just that we like to think that men are more liable (maybe they are) but I do think that as women become more independent financially and career wise and have ways and means of looking and feeling younger and fitter for longer the prevalence of women who have affairs later in life will rise.

[Offred]

I don't agree that monogamy is not a natural state I think that's a pseudo scientific argument. I don't think "natural" comments about monogamy, polygamy, promiscuity etc there are evolutionary advantages and disadvantages to each thing. Co-parenting which would have required a degree of monogamy or polygamy for at least the period of child rearing, which enabled Homo sapiens to have a longer childhood, gave Homo sapiens an evolutionary advantage over neanderthals. Clearly certain parts of Christianity and patriarchy promote some damaging forms of monogamy.

I don't think there is a clear "natural state", perhaps serial monogamy and co-parenting of resulting child/children is quite "natural" although there is so much culture which is both anti and pro monogamy it is hard to tell.

[Offred]

And rather shockingly I'm not sure I really interpret marriage as "one partner for life" which is the religious view. I suppose I think it is a legal and financial commitment which whilst serious is not something that should be protected at all costs.