The Adoption - anyone listening?

[Jenijena]

Over the past day I’ve downloaded and listened to all the available episodes of Tge Adoption - I think it’s also being broadcast on WATO? I’m not an expert but it appears very sensitively done and is excellent listening (would be interested in the views of people closer to adopriob). All credit to Lincolnshire County Council, and all the adults involved, for letting the microphones in.

[ifnotnowtenwhen]

Great post @Fruitbat3

[Fruitbat3]

LisaSimpsonsbff I fear you have misunderstood what I was trying to say, I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

To be very clear, under the circumstances depicted in The Adoption I agree it was utterly necessary that those children needed to be taken away. Their safeguarding was paramount and so it should be. Given the system then yes adoption really was the only option.

For me though 'the circumstances' is not just what those parents (or any parents) did to their children. Its also what we, wider society, do through social services, other agencies and 'the system' in general. I don't think enough is done in general to support families at risk, where children are at risk of neglect and worse. It was too late for the family on The Adoption, the children had to go.

The points I was trying to make were a reaction to the situation for families like the one in The Adoption in general, rather than saying those parents should keep their children now. I still believe it would be better if they could but to give them the chance would require such a massive change in how things are done that its not likely any time soon. Not to mention the effects on the children being in care waiting...

You say that the children need to be taken away before anything can be done. While it is the case that The Pause Programme is designed to support women who have already had children taken into care and adopted, its not true of all interventions. The point I have been trying to make is that more needs to be done earlier on, when the very first signs of concern show themselves. This would be support we just don't see at the moment, in pretty much any situation where trauma is involved. This would be way before someone even had children.

My sentiments about this are not restricted to adoption. It's all trauma situations. As the granddaughter of a man who suffered severe PTSD after fighting in the Far East in WWII and with a sister who was severely traumatised at a very young age, I know the consequences of having no specialised help available. I have seen first hand how the effects of trauma rattle through the generations, how trauma's victims get mislabeled with various mental illnesses or even personality disorders, of being useless, inept... how it can rip families apart and leaved people struggling just to get by day to day.

Jon Marnel the interviewer was really surprised what the birth mother said about getting pregnant again and that she did so soon. It was entirely predictable. As was the fact that the father's girlfriend was an adoptee herself - it was predictable she chose him as a partner. All of us all the time try to repair what is broken in our lives by repeating the cycles. If we're not conscious of what is happening then we'll just do the same over and over. Even if we are conscious, we still likely need help to get out of going round the same destructive loop. But getting through and out the loops is how we grow, so its worth doing and in my opinion worth investing in so that all in society have that chance. Parenting classes barely start to scratch the surface though... although of good ones are always worth having.

So I guess for me it was very hard to listen to how unidentified trauma can rip a family apart. Its all too common in this world (beyond adoption) and I so wish we were doing more to break the cycles that rattle through the generations.

Yes childrens' immediate needs first. And those parents 'wants' were also needs, we need to see them as that as a society. And yes even given all I say the kids had to be taken away in that situation...

[Wellandtrulyoutnumbered]

Listening now. I'm a social worker. It's hard to listen to but is an excellent series.

[hiyasminitsme]

That's very very common. Most of the child protection families I know of have at least four kids and many six or more.

[ifnotnowtenwhen]

I loved how John Minel (sp?) was able to draw information from the people without being confrontational.

It was fascinating listening.

I couldn’t believe how clueless the birth parents were. I wondered if the mother actually had some undiagnosed LD?

Just planning to keep having babies to price she could do it

[hiyasminitsme]

I think it was very clear that a huge amount had been put in place to help the parents and they had been unwilling/unable to change. Dad sounded deluded and I suspect has a nasty temper.

[LunasSpectreSpecs]

And all you adopters are amazing. Hats off to you all.

[Mischa123]

I thought it was amazing (I am a mother of an adopted child). The birth mother sounded so detached from the children and I felt so sad for her and the future when I heard the final episode

[LunasSpectreSpecs]

Yes - isn't it good.

I felt desperately sorry for Jeff and Patricia - the maternal grandparents - who had taken in two of the children's older siblings but just didn't have room for another two. The mother was an odd one - obviously they didn't want to go into details about exactly why the children were removed from her and there was a lot of stuff about "keeping them safe". She stuck to the "i'm a good mum" line, even though she had had SIX children removed, one at birth. Dad came across as volatile I think.

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

fruitbat I fully agree with you that all this should be done to support the mother - but these are all interventions that can only take place after the children have been taken into care. That means that you either accept that their children are adopted, but that they may be able to have and keep others in the future, or you accept the children spending prolonged periods in care waiting to see whether or not intervention for their mother works - and surely there can be no argument that the children have to come first, and so the first option is not ideal but the preferable of the two? The reason I (and so many others) disagreed with you was not that you thought the mother should receive help and intense therapy, but that you said more should have been done to let these parents keep their children. I just don't think that could have been done without prioritising the birth parents' wants over the childrens' needs.

[Fruitbat3]

A long overdue response to several question to my earlier post in this thread... @LisaSimpsonsbff @friendlyflicka @IfYouGoDownToTheWoodsToday @MaximilianNero

So much food for thought in this thread and everyone's reactions and comments.

@TeenTimesTwo I was saddened to read your post, I feared as much that the support would not be there.

Several posters asked me what more did I think could be done? I was really moved and reassured by the interview with the judge and extremely moved by the writing from the 50 something adoptee that were on last Thursday's WATO, they put it far better than I ever could:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09drjmf#play
For me this bought some brilliant balance to an already brilliant series.

The judge mentioned the Pause Programme: www.pause.org.uk/
Certainly something more that could be done for the mother in The Adoption.

An amazing woman talks about Pause on "Fore Thought" last year, from the perspective of the eldest of 9 who watched her younger siblings be variously be taken into care and be adopted: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b080w5q6

Beyond Pause (or maybe its already part of it, there's not much information on their exact approach on their website), then I would say that addressing the trauma and repeating terrible cycles within families can be addressed in the case of trauma with specific trauma addressing therapies: Somatic Experiencing; EMDR; and Trauma Release Exercises are just three examples. And in the case family repetitions Systemic Therapy either as an individual or as a family and family constellations are examples there.

I have to finish by again say thanks to the producers of the series and WATO in general, especially for those additional interviews. We so need to talk about this (as a society) and other issues that have their roots in traumatic experiences. Trauma is endemic and sadly our mental health system is nowhere near (yet) to helping us address our trauma at a community wide level. The Pause Programme looks like a brilliant step forward...

[Iwantacampervan]

I haven't caught Feedback yet but heard the start in the car - I'll listen today.

[Modestine]

I heard Feedback too. The inescapable fact is that loads of children urgently, urgently need adoptive parents, and this series will help. It's really important.

[LapdanceShoeshine]

I caught a bit about this on Feedback this afternoon. Lots of complaints about exploitation etc

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09fxs30#play

[hiyasminitsme]

Just listened to the last one. I'm a GP in a borough known for its child protection work - this all rings so true, particularly the complete denial from the parents that they have done anything wrong. I'm not surprised that the grandparents couldn't see the little ones, the risk from the older kids of the birth parents trying to see them/find out the school etc would just be too great. fantastic series.

[Bubbinsmakesthree]

That was a brilliant bit of documentary making - amazing that they managed to access all the main people involved in the case, and to navigate the need for appropriate levels of confidentiality and anonymity whilst still bringing us in to the detail.

I found the birth parents tragic as well - I cannot possibly imagine the pain of having your children taken away. But equally when faced with that reality, not being able to step up and do what is needed to hold onto them is barely comprehensible. Especially thinking about the birth mother - someone who seemed to have decent parents, without apparent drink or drug problems, who was described as kind and well meaning. It must be utterly devastating for the grandparents to watch your daughter fail in this way and to lose access to your grandchildren as a result.

I would really have liked to have heard more in the last episode about how the children were getting on now, but I can understand why that wasn't provided.

[BluePheasant]

I’ve just started listening to the podcasts. Just listened to episode 4 where the grandad explains there are in fact 6 children in total. It’s a story that rings so true.

Part of my work involves working in an antenatal clinic. In the notes we see details of existing children and where they are now and sadly it’s not uncommon to see multiple children, usually all pretty close together in age, and every one of them will be either adopted, in foster care or with grandparents. Often it’s a combination of all three. You know that with this history the baby that the mum is currently carrying will not be going home with the birth parents. It’s so sad to see and often the parents are just as excited and happy as any other expectant parents. They genuinely don’t see what is ahead of them even though they will have been told. Denial maybe. Or just unable to understand that they can’t cope or provide a safe environment.

From the outside, these parents are judged harshly. Why do they keep having babies? Why can’t they just use contraception? It’s never that simple. There’s almost always a tragic story behind it all. And sadly in a lot of cases they will just keep getting pregnant because this time it will be the one they can keep, so convinced are they that everyone else is wrong about them. The birthdates of the children often have frightening regularity and the mothers have many fertile years ahead of them, I’m always left wondering how many more there will be needing homes

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

That final one was both lovely and also very sad for the birth mother. It's hard not to have a visceral negative reaction to her (especially as I'm currently struggling to have one child), but of course she's actually a very tragic figure, not an evil one. I so wish there was something to get her out of the terrible cycle she's in, but it's clear that the professionals weren't hopeful.

It was an absolutely great bit of radio, overall - moving, sensitive and really thought provoking.

[User5trillion]

Just listened to them all. I couldn't believe the birth parents, they seem in such denial. Such a difficult story for all involved esp the grandparents having to choose but I understand their reasons for picking the older ones. I hope it all works out for the children and adoptive parents. An amazing piece of radio.

[TuftedLadyGrotto]

The birth mother! Saying she will jeep having children so she can prove she can look after them so sad after 6 children taken away.

[Jenijena]

The last podcast is out, and the birth mother has had another baby, who isn’t with her. And the grandparents aren’t seeing the children for reasons we don’t know.

It’s been fascinating, but sad.

[TuftedLadyGrotto]

The birth mother's upbringing couldn't have been so awful if the grandparents had been able to have custody of two of the children? I know there are other thing stay can happen. I thought I remembered them mentioning other siblings of birth mother having kids?

The maternal grandparents seemed genuinely baffled at how she wasn't able to step up and parent.

I thought in the last episode, although the adoptive mother didn't say a huge amount you could hear some of the challenges in her pauses, and her nervous laughing of "how tired she was". I've used being tired as an excuse many times as a parent, when really it's so much more.

[TeenTimesTwo]

Questa I'm with you in not liking the stereotyping of colour. However, when moving a 3 year old on for adoption is not the right time/place for anyone to be challenging it.

(As it turned out, my eldest was quite suggestable. So we told the SW the colours we were planning to use, who then told the FC, who then suggested 'ooh I wonder what colour your room will be. Wouldn't it be lovely to have something like X and Y' A couple of weeks later we got some requests back including 'I'd like my room to be X and Y'. Sorted. )

[QuestaVecchiaCasa]

The bedroom is pink because it’s the little girls favourite colour... hmm I wonder why her brother wasn't so desperate for pink.

[falange]

Questa you have got it wrong.* The bedroom is pink because it’s the little girls favourite colour.*