Council just rejected my extension plans !!! Help !!! :((((

[mumtosp]

Hi all,

I am hoping someone can come along and offer some advice as I seem to have an architect who is bad at communicating and may also not know what he's doing... and I am now in a panic ! :(

I've attached pictures of the original plan and also the extension. You can see in the original plan, that the house has been extended to the side, beyond the original side line of the house and this was done under permission.

So my architect said that since we are doing a rear extension of 6m, that falls under permitted developement (PD) as opposed to needing planning permissions. Everything was submitted end of Dec and we were hoping to get everything approved by now. Then this morning, when the architect called the council, they said it was rejected :( :( :( (this is the Bromley council btw)

My council apparently told my architect that it will be approved only if we demolish the existing side extension - where the WC is. This didn't make any sense to me as the current extension has already been approved by the council!

So I called the council myself and they said that under permitted developement, the rear extension cannot touch the side extension even if the side extention was previously approved. They also said that this is the rule and the architect should have known not to submit this as a 'permitted developement' project! I have also read on a few other websites and they all seem to say the same thing.

My architect keeps on insisting that this rule falls under a grey area and every council interprets it differently! Is that so???

Also, he is saying that if we want to stick to our 6 m extention, then we should do what the council is saying and knock down the existing side extention.
So then I told him, why can't we just submit this as a proper planing permission and keep the side extension... he says that under planning permission I can only get a rear extension of 4 m... is that correct ???

I don't know what to do next :( :(

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance :)

[Lonecatwithkitten]

@Codr hopefully as the OP posted 3 years ago this has no been resolved.
ZOOMBIE

[Kilby37]

Hi, I'm looking for people's stories about planning for my phd research, over on the surveys/students thread here on Mumsnet. I'd be really grateful if you could take a look and consider contributing.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/surveys_students_non_profits_and_start_ups/2851018-Wanted-Your-experience-of-the-UK-planning-system-for-PhD-research?watched=1

[mumtosp]

Thanks Seeline. It sounds as if I should be sorting out the certificate of lawfullness now while the build is yet to start. I will look up on the council site on how to go about it...

[Seeline]

It's easier to get one before you start - although if you have been through the consultation procedure with the council, that should be sufficient so make sure you keep all the paper work.
To apply for a certificate post-development, you have to apply for a Certificate of Existing Lawful development, and therefore have to prove that the development was pd at the time it was built, which can be harder. Alternatively, once the proposal has been up for 4 years, and the Council have taken no action against it, it becomes exempt from enforcement action. Not quite the same thing, but means the council can't then ask for it to be removed/altered, so again, make sure you know the date it was finished - Building Regs completion certificate or something.

[mumtosp]

Understood.... I don't really need a certificate, but it would be good to have... Especially given the confusion around the side extension.
One more question... Once my application has gone through the 21 neighbour consultation period and assuming no one has raised any objections, I can go ahead with the build right?? I can always get the certificate of lawfulness at a later stage?

Thanks 😊

[shovetheholly]

Sorry, I put that REAAAALLLY badly! My proposal is not PD! So we are going for permission as a matter of necessity. We have supportive neighbours and good architects, so fingers crossed.

I was just saying if it were borderline PD, i.e. if I were in the OP's shoes and questions had been raised about one element (in her case, the side extension), I'd see the certificate as a kind of insurance policy - something that'd help me sell the house at a later date. I wouldn't want to assume PD for something that might be queried at a later date IYSWIM.

[Seeline]

shove - you either need full planning permission or you don't. If your proposal is pd, you can't apply for planning permission - the Council will probably either convert it into a Certificate application or return it.

[shovetheholly]

I am in the early phases of getting plans drawn for an extension, and I am definitely going to go through the whole planning process because what I'm doing is slightly unconventional (I have architect friends with crazy ideas! ). If I were doing a more standard extension, I would just get a certificate - I do think it's worth having because there are then no issues when you sell.

[Seeline]

government advice on Certificates here

[Seeline]

If you are sure that what you are doing is pd, then you don't have to have a Certificate. They are useful if the design of an extension/alteration may be open to interpretation. If the proposal is straightforward, it is unlikely that you would need a Certificate. However, sometimes prospective purchasers require proof that pp was not required for something so if you have had a Certificate granted, you have that proof.

[mumtosp]

shove Seeline are you saying that I don't necessarily need a certificate of lawfulness, but it's a good to have when we come to sell the house?

[Seeline]

No - definitely exists in England wookie

[thewookieswife]

I thought the certificate of lawfulness was just a thing in Scotland?

[Seeline]

shove is basically correct.
If something doesn't meet the pd requirements, tehn you need to apply for full planning permission. PP can be granted, and often is, for developments that exceed the pd limits. Each Council will have its own policies (as referred to in my previous post) which it will use to assess the development. If the proposal meets those requirements, pp can be given. The Council will look at things such as the impact on neighbouring properties in terms of overlooking and visual impact, and the impact on the character and appearance of the area.

A Certificate of Lawfulness for a Proposed Development can be granted if a formal application is made for a proposal which meets all the requirements of pd. they can be useful to show that pp wasn't required for a development when selling a property.

[shovetheholly]

mumtosp - I don't think that sounds right. I might have got this wrong because it's very hard to get clear guidance on this, but as I understand it, there are 3 'levels':

• permitted development up to 3 metres
  
• permitted development up to 6 metres, which is subject to neighbour consultation and notification of the local planning team but NOT full planning permission (which is what you're doing)
  
• full planning permission: where planners will consider the merits/demerits of the scheme individually. This means you can actually go larger than the PD limits in some cases.
  

I think the Certificate of Lawfulness is just an official, written confirmation that your proposals fall into one of the first two categories, and that they are legal and do not require full planning permission.

I'm sure someone who is an expert in this area will clear this up!!

[mumtosp]

Update: submitted our new plans... Showing that we will demolish the existing side extension. Council has registered the plans and sent out a letter to the neighbours giving them 21 days to raise any concerns....
Last time the council rejected our plans and never sent it to the neighbours... So this is a definite progress 😊😊

Can someone explain what is a certificate of lawfulness and do I need one? If the neighbours don't our plans the council has said that we can go ahead with the build.... So do I still need a certificate of lawfulness ??

TIA 😊

[mumtosp]

Seeline and MrsPJones thanks for the added info! :)

shovetheholly we didn't want to go through planning as that would restrict us to a 3m extention where as under PD we can have 6m... which is what other others on the street have already done....

:)

[shovetheholly]

I don't understand... why don't you just take it through planning, instead of trying to squeak it through permitted development? It doesn't cost that much (proportionately to the build)?

[MrsPJones]

We used just-planning.co.uk when our application was declined. The guy is a former planning officer. We were really happy with his advice and service.

[Seeline]

if I can understand this, I don't see why my architect thinks this is grey area. He's the one with a degree in architecture !

Because he is not a planner - they are different!!
PD rules are generally the same for every Council - although can vary from property to property depending on the planning history.
The guidelines for development if planning permission is required vary from Council to COuncil - the guidance is contained within their Local Planning Framework.
The Bromley Local Plan policy for extensions is

RESIDENTIAL EXTENSIONS
POLICY H8
The design and layout of proposals for the alteration or enlargement of residential properties will be required to satisfy all of the following criteria:
(i) the scale, form and materials of construction should respect or complement those of the host dwelling and be compatible with development in the surrounding area;
(ii) space or gaps between buildings should be respected or maintained where these contribute to the character of the area;
(iii) dormer windows should be of a size and design appropriate to the roofscape and sited away from prominent roof pitches, unless dormers are a feature of the area.

Also residential design guidance document here:
residential design guidance

Your proposal will have to meet the requirements listed for pp to be granted if you decide to go ahead with applying.

[mumtosp]

Waxlyrically thanks for that link !!! that was very helpful... I now know exactly why our plans were rejected and if I can understand this, I don't see why my architect thinks this is grey area. He's the one with a degree in architecture !

[Waxlyrically]

www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/100806_PDforhouseholders_TechnicalGuidance.pdf might be useful to you as explains it with diagrams.

I am not clear what is an existing extension so think it is either because it projects too far back from the rear elevation as original p. 16, as a whole is too close to the boundary p.20 or because in combination the extension is now more than half the width of the original p.24. Not being PD doesn't mean you can't apply for planning permission though.