repremanded for not believing in god

[Unagray]

Today my son was sternly repremanded for telling his teacher he did not believe in god. He told me he thought it was important she knew and was deeply upset from her reaction! I am utterly furious! What are my rights here? Surely this is unacceptable? I am trying to handle this rationally but I am seething. Added note... school is not C of E... but does have whole school worship.. (national curriculum?)

[Increasinglymiddleaged]

I hate God is a really really disrespectful/ offensive thing to say for lots of people and I am an atheist. I think the teacher was entirely reasonable to challenge this if this was the actual context.

[Lifechallenges]

Umm odd

[mnahmnah]

Middleagemanic

I am an RE teacher. You clearly have collective worship and RE confused. Different things. RE is a fully inclusive subject. All beliefs and none welcomed and accepted. Open discussion. Philosophy based. Adapted for current affairs, related to the world around them, a space and time for students to consider and develop their own thoughts and beliefs.

Having said that, my own 5yo DS comes home complaining about ‘God assemblies’ 😂

[MaisyPops]

Or emily you teach your child that people have lots of beliefs and it is rude to go around claiming you hate people's beliefs/Gods, it's not polite or kind to be rude or obnoxious about any belief different to your own (true regardless of faith or lack.of faith) and should a situation where a debate about faith arises it should be discussed sensibly and with respect.

[EmilyfromLondon]

Teach your child early. If they're being fed bullshit about god, teach your kid to feed the teacher bullshit back by telling them they believe

[MaisyPops]

My guess would be (reading between thr lines) either:

1. Child had been told to be quiet and stop talking when the teacher is talking multiple times and then the last thing he did prior to being told off was say 'i hate god'
   
2. The child has form for being quite rude/disruptive/disrespectful to others and said it in a rude tone (perhaps with other commenta), hence getting into trouble
   

A child getting told off for politely and calmly discussing their views during a time for discussion seems quite unlikely.

Just my thoughts. I'd never tell a child off for having a differing view but I'd be down on them like a ton of bricks if they felt it was acceptable to disrupt the lesson or be disrespectful to others - especially on more sensitive topics

[Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar]

Why did he think it was important that the teacher knew? I don't think you should be "immensely proud" of a 7 year old who announces the fact that he doesn't believe in God at the class Nativity, because it's such an important fact.
He sounds like a precocious little sod, to be brutally honest. And attention seeking.

[HRTpatch]

crazy and disruptive
Hmm

[BubblesBuddy]

I would suggest for disrespecting other people’s views. If you look at the syllabus, shouting out that you hate God is not in the spirit of respect and tolerance. Does he do that with every subject he doesn’t agree with?

We would not like children shouting out that they hated the Prophet Mohammed would we? Or shouting out that they hated all aetheists? Most schools would not accept this interjection without comment. Any declaration of hate against any religion is not acceptable so op please try and avoid the word “hate” and try and teach tolerance and respect whatever lack of belief you have. Kindness to others is always good too.

[user789653241]

OP, did you find out why he was told off?

[crazycatgal]

It's probably the way he said what he said. He might have shouted 'I hate God' loudly not realising that he was shouting (as many children do.) You need to speak to the teacher really to see what went on.

[Unagray]

Wow! Nothing like a bit of support from my fellow Mumsnetters.... nice.

Merry Christmas to you too Viques

(P.s I am immensely proud of my ‘crazy’ 7 year old!)

[viques]

Interesting that the OP hasn't come back. I suspect that as many have assumed, her son was told off for his rudeness rather than his opinion.



Btw I have met many 7 year olds and their parents, and very few parents use the words crazy and disruptive in such a loving tone to describe their child's behaviour at school.

[BertrandRussell]

“it's obviously controversial to define what a religion is, let alone what atheism is.”

It’s not even remotely controversial to define what atheism is. It could hardly be simpler!

[CoteDAzur]

“Non-belief in a god, is not non-belief in a religion”
“Irreligion is not a belief in god”
“So I won't label the irreligious as atheist”

Who are you talking to? I certainly said nothing like the above. You are making up imaginary arguments to debunk. That is a logical fallacy called Straw Man.

What I said was:

Nobody with a dictionary and a brain can classify atheism as a religion, since it is the ABSENCE of faith in a God.

Argue against that, if you can.

[sinceyouask]

I got shouted at in secondary school for not joining in (or pretending to join in) with prayer. One of the few times my dm was on my side rather than the school's. Once she'd established that I genuinely had us sat there and not said anything rude or messed about she was scathing with the teacher.

[sirfredfredgeorge]

Nobody with a dictionary and a brain can classify atheism as a religion, since it is the absence of faith in a God

Non-belief in a god, is not non-belief in a religion, unless you want to define religion solely as a belief in god - that fails with various beliefs that most people would rarely argue are not (many Buddhism forms but there are other.

I would be interested to know how you came to the conclusion that most people without religious belief still believe in God.

Irreligion is not a belief in god, it's not taking a position on religion through complete indifference and often hostility (the I hate god of this thread) to define people who completely don't care and have no interest as atheists is labelling them entirely inappropriately. It's some crazy prescriptivist view of a dictionary definition of a complex label.

So I won't label the irreligious as atheist, simply because I expect most don't care, polls certainly suggest that many are not atheist (polls say ~30% don't believe in a god, but ~53% have no religion, which gives a large number of theistic non-believers) but actually polls on this are of the most unreliable since it's not something that matters to so many.

Which is why of course it's worth teaching, because for the few people it does matter to - and even more so in other countries - an understanding helps. And also of course specifically because of sunday school and the like teaching a single religious view from a young age, it's important to combat that early in primary school.

My personal belief is that this religious teaching is why we have such a tiny, tiny number of religious 18 year olds now, and why it's mostly the very religious parents who opt their kids out of RE.

[CoteDAzur]

... hold off religious education

[CoteDAzur]

“At the outset of RE classes, pupils should have agnosticism and atheism explained to them so they can understand all the views of children and their families in the school,”

In my experience, you don’t actually need to explain atheism & agnosticism to children if you hold of religious education until about 8-9, when they start to think critically. That is their natural starting point.

I suspect that is why religious education starts so young, at Sunday School even before kids start formal education. Get into their heads before they can question stuff

[CoteDAzur]

“I wonder if there are any SACRE's which do define atheism as a religion”

Nobody with a dictionary and a brain can classify atheism as a religion, since it is the absence of faith in a God.

“it's obviously controversial to define what a religion is, let alone what atheism is.”

It’s not. Atheist is someone who listens to God stories and replies “That makes no sense. I dont believe any of it”. Atheism is therefore lack of belief in a God.

“Certainly agree that religious studies is necessary, especially as the majority of people without a faith are irreligious now, rather than explicitly atheist.”

You have conducted polls that show this?

I would be interested to know how you came to the conclusion that most people without religious belief still believe in God.

[Bitlost]

The topic of atheism should be taught in schools.. It used to be part of the syllabus and has been taken out at some stage under the previous Tory government. As I said above, my DD was rather viciously attacked by two girls for not saying prayers at school camp. I find it sad that there are girls who are so ignorant in her school that they don't know what atheism is. It's not a sign of a modern country, is it?

[sirfredfredgeorge]

I wonder if there are any SACRE's which do define atheism as a religion and include it in their syllabus explicitly - it's obviously controversial to define what a religion is, let alone what atheism is.

Certainly agree that religious studies is necessary, especially as the majority of people without a faith are irreligious now, rather than explicitly atheist.

[MaisyPops]

Agreed bubbles.
Our y11s were talking about their mocks after the holidays and they were on about how they have to compare different faith viewpoints to their own personal worldview.

E.g what different branches of christianity and islam believe and how far it is similat/different to theirs.

Atheism isn't taught... because it is not a religion and the subject is RELIGIOUS studies.
At a level when some providers opt to teach 'Philosophy and ethics' a level, there are broader views, philosophies and ethical viewpoints because it's 'philosophy and ethics' not 'religious studies'.

If anything, I think the need for religious studies is increasing to avoid people of all faiths and none getting to the point of only chatting to people like them and dismissing other views whilst claiming that their branch of Christianity/Islam/athiesm etc is somehow a persecuted group and poor them.

[BubblesBuddy]

Middleaged: you seem to have no idea what is contained in the agreed syllabus for RE in schools. Look at the current one for your LA and you will find lots of good topics in it about understanding the world, other peoples beliefs and the attempt to be academic and personal. It does really attempt to explain religion to non religious people in an evangelical way.

It is not about acts of worship: it is about understanding and tolerance. Whatever a child has been taught by parents at the age of 7, saying you hate God is intolerant and is not acceptable behaviour. The whole idea is to tolerate other positions and for others to tolerate yours. Being outspoken and saying you hate something at age 7 (that others clearly love) isn’t good behaviour.

The RE curriculum is not going away anytime soon. Perhaps tolerance is something we all should learn, relious or non religious. It’s a good trait.

[Unagray]

Absolutely agree! Well said! The more we all discuss this subject the sooner changes will happen. It is utterly ludicrous for us to ‘tip toe’ around a subject which so dramatically affects our world everyday.