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Tutoring for secondary - is Y4 really the right time?

44 replies

FlumePlume · 18/01/2016 19:48

I've had a few chats with parents of older kids who are tutoring their kids for the local super selective grammar or selective private schools. They seem to start in Y3 or Y4. Most recently, one said that starting January Y4 only gave you a year and two months of tutoring, which seems completely mad to me as surely the exams are in the autumn of Y6? Do people really start that early?

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Provencalroseparadox · 20/01/2016 12:04

I'm in SW London and DS had just say 10+ exams for private schools. We started tutoring him in September and I would say, for 10+ we definitely left it too late. He's come on leaps and bounds in 3 months but I wish we'd started earlier.

Most people we know started year 3 or 4.

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Buttwing · 20/01/2016 17:42

Ah ok steppe that makes a lot of sense now.

Dd sat hers in September and one was a CEM and one was GL style. Which was a bit of a pain as they were both quite different. Dd is exceptional at English and good at maths but it doesn't come naturally she found NV tricky too and to be honest those were the two areas her tutor spent the majority of time on. VR came very naturally to her.

She is my eldest and to be honest I would probably relax a little bit more with the younger three.But as this was the first time I wasn't sure what was involved so kind of through everything I had at it!

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Hayelp · 21/01/2016 06:31

Pupils used to start in Year 5 or towards the end of Y4 if preparing for 11+ state school selectives and / or independent schools. However, since the changes to the exam format (Herts. adoption of the CEM VR paper), pupils are advisably starting at an earlier age - generally in Year 4. A steady and cumulative approach to the acquisition of vocabulary and development of (challenging) spelling means that the year or so that used to be ample, is too high an incline to make sufficient progress. Competition for certain state school selectives in Herts. is astonishingly high.

It is now the case that preparing children for independent selectives (private schools) is easier to time-box and achieve, in many cases, than going for Super Selective state schools. This was not the case before the change in syllabus.

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mnistooaddictive · 21/01/2016 06:45

Thank goodness I don't live in a grammar school area. This is just all crazy expensive madness to me! None of the kids round here have tutoring at primary.

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Greenleave · 21/01/2016 07:30

I am not against learning more at home and/or tutor as it helps children to stretch their knowledge and more time/chance to practise both in broadening and deepening the curr especially the able/very able ones eho find work at school is easy and they could do so much more and our state system isnt so supportive to them. All is perfect if schools put more effort/resource/time into the upper class more then whatever entrance exam and how hard they are there will be very little need to have a tutor.

For now I do feel like I need one. Not in year 4 but definitely year 5. I want to give her another year of learning things she likes and should then only 1 year "practise" the specific exam format especially her school doesnt do any prep and/or showing support for able children

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Toomanycats99 · 21/01/2016 08:07

Mnistooadictive - I wish I didn't have to tutor! I gues it's a vicious circle - because everyone else does you need to as well to stand a chance. I just remember my niece who loved reading getting to about 13 and being embarrassed about it and stopping. My daughter currently loves learning as so I (went back to college part time at 27 and then did professional qualifications) and I don't want her to lose that or feel she has to hide it to fit in.

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sunnydayinmay · 21/01/2016 13:38

Just to add, there are degrees of tutoring around me (also sw hearts). I know several families who pull their dcs out of all extra curriculum activities for year 5, because they are tutoring for several hours, nightly. For a few places at super (but mainly part) selectives.

That cannot be good for anyone!

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Elibean · 21/01/2016 15:02

SW London, and its amazing how its changed in 3 years - dd1's class had one or two children tutored for private school exams in Y5/6, dd2's class seems to have about 8 or 9 in Y4. We're not in a grammar school area, only a few will be going on to independents, but parents are anxious anyway.

I agree with you, OP, completely mad.

dd2 will probably try for indies as well as state, and I'm not tutoring her. In Y5 yes, a bit, so she isn't stressed by papers - but not yet. And if she'd rather do it at home with me (unlikely) thats fine too.

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FlumePlume · 21/01/2016 20:37

Thanks for all the advice and experience. So far I've only got the number of one tutor (people are pretty cagey about them) and I'm wondering whether to bother seeking out more and getting dd on waiting lists for them just in case, or just assume that some home tutoring / familiarisation / preparation / whatever you want to call it in Y5 will be fine.

The basic problem is that her lovely state primary doesn't set, no longer has NC levels and certainly does not give any suggestions as to where might be a good fit at secondary, other than saying the local comprehensive will improve if all the kids go there. So I'm wondering about a tutor just in order to work out where she might fit best, and where is realistic. Which feels slightly ridiculous.

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Toomanycats99 · 21/01/2016 20:53

Op - the long established tutoring place near me does assessments about £35 and you can see what level they are at. Maybe somewhere near you might do similar?

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Hayelp · 22/01/2016 07:05

I'd recommend asking more widely for recommendations of a tutor. Talk to people whose tutoring needs and objectives were the same as yours. Word of wisdom: unless you are asking your sister, best friend of many years or someone from an entirely different year group (with whom your child poses no 'threat' of competition), be very wary of believing the 'I don't know of any tutors/ we don't have a tutor' response. I've had parents in my hallway having a 'stand off' when one said to the other: "I thought you said you didn't have a tutor!" Generally, parents do not share details until they've 'finished' with their tutor. It's a secretive and sadly selfish attitude born from fear of failure. Awful!

Although it's best to find a tutor who specialises in meeting the objectives you have in mind, your child's class teacher may be able to help by asking colleagues or 'teacher friends'. When you DO find someone who has a suitable tutoring specialism (eg 11+ state super selectives for your area, dyslexia, etc.), expect for there to be a waiting list and for it to be £££ if in or near London - which is why it may be worth finding an interim solution.

Alternatively, if you're one of the fortunate parents whose child will listen to you as you give feedback and input, follow instructions without much resistance and you find that you're able to explain concepts that they don't understand in areas of the curriculum related to the particular examinations you're hoping they'll pass, GO FOR IT! Have a look at elevenplusexams.co.uk for guidance.

Much of the work is effectively done at home by the pupil. This isn't to say that working under the guidance of a really good tutor isn't invaluable - it's so helpful for you to feel reassured and guided as to what to work on and for your child to have a positive and experienced tutor to work on areas that are a mystery to them.

Be suspicious of tutors offering to 'assess' your child (particularly if this is at a higher rate) or of those quoting 'success rates'.
Assessment: I've tutored children who've simply not had effective class teaching input, resulting in many gaps in their knowledge and understanding BUT who were/ are so incredibly bright that they've galloped ahead at a rate of knots with the right tuition. Equally, I've taught children who were already working close to their potential (having been better taught at school) so presented with fewer 'gaps' but whose 'rate of absorption' was slower. Another factor, inevitably, is whether practice is carried out at home. Visiting a tutor once a week inevitably accrues very little compared to those consolidating what's been learned, between lessons.
Success rates: those tutors are inevitably fibbing or selecting only those pupils who'll maintain their own statistics - not working hard to get EVERY child to their potential.

I hope that's helpful.
Good luck!

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Greenleave · 22/01/2016 07:19

Hayelp: fantastic post, thank you

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Hayelp · 22/01/2016 07:40

Glad it was useful to you 😀

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FlumePlume · 23/01/2016 18:04

Hayelp Very helpful, thanks! I'm not having much success asking other parents as I'm rarely at the school gates, but will keep trying.

So you think an assessment is a bad idea? I just have no idea what level dd is at in terms of which schools would be realistic, so it seemed like a good idea to me. I think her school is good but not particularly stretching her (she certainly finds the classwork easy and completes her homework all by herself in under the expected time, for example) but this is just from my hazy memories of primary school, so I could be way off base.

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Hayelp · 23/01/2016 18:24

What would you like an assessment to provide you with? The most useful and accurate insights will be current capabilities, gaps and 'next steps'.

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Itchypaws · 23/01/2016 18:57

Just a word to the wise about finding a tutor - really do your research and go by oersomal reference if you can.

I used a tutor for my DS who constantly and openly vocalised her opinions against the school he is currently at and the amount of homework he had each day! By the time i realised that she was undermining the school so openly to my DS it was too late to find another tutor and I had a right old time trying to unravel the danage she had done to my sons confidence and attitude towards his entrance exams for secondary.

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FlumePlume · 23/01/2016 19:07

Hayelp That's it, exactly. Capabilities, gaps, next steps is precisely what I want. But Y4 seems awfully early, given I know she's ahead rather than behind in terms of her schoolwork. Thus my thread. Would a good tutor (assuming I can find one) do an assessment in Y4 and then tell us to hold off until Y5 if she's doing well, or is that a pipe dream?

ItchyPaws Wow, that hadn't even occurred to me!

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Hayelp · 23/01/2016 19:34

A good tutor is likely to be a busy/ full tutor. They'd inevitably need to be arm-twisted to squeeze you in for a one-off session. This, in combination with a thorough analysis of the exams your top choice of schools require (find a tutor who knows their stuff on this) will allow them to make informed recommendations on when best to start. If it's the CEM VR exam, start earlier rather than later, even if you do so at home just with VR following the tutor's recommendations (which resources, how and how often to use them, etc.). You can check in with the tutor when they have a free slot (if someone cancels), if that's what they recommend.

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PettsWoodParadise · 23/01/2016 22:50

DD sat for three grammar tests including the local superselective which is on our doorstep. We started with her visiting the schools and seeing herself as one of the girls. She was then self motivated and we tried Explore Learning and a tutor but ended up doing it ourselves- well honestly DD doing a lot of it herself. A couple of mocks helped. Starting too soon in our situation have had very a negative effective. I would say keep the reading and vocab at a good level and know what they are covering in maths at school.

If all you need is a grammar pass it isn't that difficult but a superselective score is that much harder. If for an independent it depends on whether you are in a grammar area, what the other lovel schools are like etc.

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