Tutoring for secondary - is Y4 really the right time?

[FlumePlume]

I've had a few chats with parents of older kids who are tutoring their kids for the local super selective grammar or selective private schools. They seem to start in Y3 or Y4. Most recently, one said that starting January Y4 only gave you a year and two months of tutoring, which seems completely mad to me as surely the exams are in the autumn of Y6? Do people really start that early?

[PettsWoodParadise]

DD sat for three grammar tests including the local superselective which is on our doorstep. We started with her visiting the schools and seeing herself as one of the girls. She was then self motivated and we tried Explore Learning and a tutor but ended up doing it ourselves- well honestly DD doing a lot of it herself. A couple of mocks helped. Starting too soon in our situation have had very a negative effective. I would say keep the reading and vocab at a good level and know what they are covering in maths at school.

If all you need is a grammar pass it isn't that difficult but a superselective score is that much harder. If for an independent it depends on whether you are in a grammar area, what the other lovel schools are like etc.

[Hayelp]

A good tutor is likely to be a busy/ full tutor. They'd inevitably need to be arm-twisted to squeeze you in for a one-off session. This, in combination with a thorough analysis of the exams your top choice of schools require (find a tutor who knows their stuff on this) will allow them to make informed recommendations on when best to start. If it's the CEM VR exam, start earlier rather than later, even if you do so at home just with VR following the tutor's recommendations (which resources, how and how often to use them, etc.). You can check in with the tutor when they have a free slot (if someone cancels), if that's what they recommend.

[FlumePlume]

Hayelp That's it, exactly. Capabilities, gaps, next steps is precisely what I want. But Y4 seems awfully early, given I know she's ahead rather than behind in terms of her schoolwork. Thus my thread. Would a good tutor (assuming I can find one) do an assessment in Y4 and then tell us to hold off until Y5 if she's doing well, or is that a pipe dream?

ItchyPaws Wow, that hadn't even occurred to me!

[Itchypaws]

Just a word to the wise about finding a tutor - really do your research and go by oersomal reference if you can.

I used a tutor for my DS who constantly and openly vocalised her opinions against the school he is currently at and the amount of homework he had each day! By the time i realised that she was undermining the school so openly to my DS it was too late to find another tutor and I had a right old time trying to unravel the danage she had done to my sons confidence and attitude towards his entrance exams for secondary.

[Hayelp]

What would you like an assessment to provide you with? The most useful and accurate insights will be current capabilities, gaps and 'next steps'.

[FlumePlume]

Hayelp Very helpful, thanks! I'm not having much success asking other parents as I'm rarely at the school gates, but will keep trying.

So you think an assessment is a bad idea? I just have no idea what level dd is at in terms of which schools would be realistic, so it seemed like a good idea to me. I think her school is good but not particularly stretching her (she certainly finds the classwork easy and completes her homework all by herself in under the expected time, for example) but this is just from my hazy memories of primary school, so I could be way off base.

[Hayelp]

Glad it was useful to you 😀

[Greenleave]

Hayelp: fantastic post, thank you

[Hayelp]

I'd recommend asking more widely for recommendations of a tutor. Talk to people whose tutoring needs and objectives were the same as yours. Word of wisdom: unless you are asking your sister, best friend of many years or someone from an entirely different year group (with whom your child poses no 'threat' of competition), be very wary of believing the 'I don't know of any tutors/ we don't have a tutor' response. I've had parents in my hallway having a 'stand off' when one said to the other: "I thought you said you didn't have a tutor!" Generally, parents do not share details until they've 'finished' with their tutor. It's a secretive and sadly selfish attitude born from fear of failure. Awful!

Although it's best to find a tutor who specialises in meeting the objectives you have in mind, your child's class teacher may be able to help by asking colleagues or 'teacher friends'. When you DO find someone who has a suitable tutoring specialism (eg 11+ state super selectives for your area, dyslexia, etc.), expect for there to be a waiting list and for it to be £££ if in or near London - which is why it may be worth finding an interim solution.

Alternatively, if you're one of the fortunate parents whose child will listen to you as you give feedback and input, follow instructions without much resistance and you find that you're able to explain concepts that they don't understand in areas of the curriculum related to the particular examinations you're hoping they'll pass, GO FOR IT! Have a look at elevenplusexams.co.uk for guidance.

Much of the work is effectively done at home by the pupil. This isn't to say that working under the guidance of a really good tutor isn't invaluable - it's so helpful for you to feel reassured and guided as to what to work on and for your child to have a positive and experienced tutor to work on areas that are a mystery to them.

Be suspicious of tutors offering to 'assess' your child (particularly if this is at a higher rate) or of those quoting 'success rates'.
Assessment: I've tutored children who've simply not had effective class teaching input, resulting in many gaps in their knowledge and understanding BUT who were/ are so incredibly bright that they've galloped ahead at a rate of knots with the right tuition. Equally, I've taught children who were already working close to their potential (having been better taught at school) so presented with fewer 'gaps' but whose 'rate of absorption' was slower. Another factor, inevitably, is whether practice is carried out at home. Visiting a tutor once a week inevitably accrues very little compared to those consolidating what's been learned, between lessons.
Success rates: those tutors are inevitably fibbing or selecting only those pupils who'll maintain their own statistics - not working hard to get EVERY child to their potential.

I hope that's helpful.
Good luck!

[Toomanycats99]

Op - the long established tutoring place near me does assessments about £35 and you can see what level they are at. Maybe somewhere near you might do similar?

[FlumePlume]

Thanks for all the advice and experience. So far I've only got the number of one tutor (people are pretty cagey about them) and I'm wondering whether to bother seeking out more and getting dd on waiting lists for them just in case, or just assume that some home tutoring / familiarisation / preparation / whatever you want to call it in Y5 will be fine.

The basic problem is that her lovely state primary doesn't set, no longer has NC levels and certainly does not give any suggestions as to where might be a good fit at secondary, other than saying the local comprehensive will improve if all the kids go there. So I'm wondering about a tutor just in order to work out where she might fit best, and where is realistic. Which feels slightly ridiculous.

[Elibean]

SW London, and its amazing how its changed in 3 years - dd1's class had one or two children tutored for private school exams in Y5/6, dd2's class seems to have about 8 or 9 in Y4. We're not in a grammar school area, only a few will be going on to independents, but parents are anxious anyway.

I agree with you, OP, completely mad.

dd2 will probably try for indies as well as state, and I'm not tutoring her. In Y5 yes, a bit, so she isn't stressed by papers - but not yet. And if she'd rather do it at home with me (unlikely) thats fine too.

[sunnydayinmay]

Just to add, there are degrees of tutoring around me (also sw hearts). I know several families who pull their dcs out of all extra curriculum activities for year 5, because they are tutoring for several hours, nightly. For a few places at super (but mainly part) selectives.

That cannot be good for anyone!

[Toomanycats99]

Mnistooadictive - I wish I didn't have to tutor! I gues it's a vicious circle - because everyone else does you need to as well to stand a chance. I just remember my niece who loved reading getting to about 13 and being embarrassed about it and stopping. My daughter currently loves learning as so I (went back to college part time at 27 and then did professional qualifications) and I don't want her to lose that or feel she has to hide it to fit in.

[Greenleave]

I am not against learning more at home and/or tutor as it helps children to stretch their knowledge and more time/chance to practise both in broadening and deepening the curr especially the able/very able ones eho find work at school is easy and they could do so much more and our state system isnt so supportive to them. All is perfect if schools put more effort/resource/time into the upper class more then whatever entrance exam and how hard they are there will be very little need to have a tutor.

For now I do feel like I need one. Not in year 4 but definitely year 5. I want to give her another year of learning things she likes and should then only 1 year "practise" the specific exam format especially her school doesnt do any prep and/or showing support for able children

[mnistooaddictive]

Thank goodness I don't live in a grammar school area. This is just all crazy expensive madness to me! None of the kids round here have tutoring at primary.

[Hayelp]

Pupils used to start in Year 5 or towards the end of Y4 if preparing for 11+ state school selectives and / or independent schools. However, since the changes to the exam format (Herts. adoption of the CEM VR paper), pupils are advisably starting at an earlier age - generally in Year 4. A steady and cumulative approach to the acquisition of vocabulary and development of (challenging) spelling means that the year or so that used to be ample, is too high an incline to make sufficient progress. Competition for certain state school selectives in Herts. is astonishingly high.

It is now the case that preparing children for independent selectives (private schools) is easier to time-box and achieve, in many cases, than going for Super Selective state schools. This was not the case before the change in syllabus.

[Buttwing]

Ah ok steppe that makes a lot of sense now.

Dd sat hers in September and one was a CEM and one was GL style. Which was a bit of a pain as they were both quite different. Dd is exceptional at English and good at maths but it doesn't come naturally she found NV tricky too and to be honest those were the two areas her tutor spent the majority of time on. VR came very naturally to her.

She is my eldest and to be honest I would probably relax a little bit more with the younger three.But as this was the first time I wasn't sure what was involved so kind of through everything I had at it!

[Provencalroseparadox]

I'm in SW London and DS had just say 10+ exams for private schools. We started tutoring him in September and I would say, for 10+ we definitely left it too late. He's come on leaps and bounds in 3 months but I wish we'd started earlier.

Most people we know started year 3 or 4.

[steppemum]

Buttwing - you are right, the content does vary.

Many areas now use the CEM exams, which cover subjects similar to school curriculum.

You need to find out which exam is used by your area. It is interesting to read how many different exams you have. I know that in Glos and in Kent (for example) it is one exam for the whole county.
11plusforum will give you all the information, but be warned people are very ahem focused on there.

Some areas still use just VR. This then requires you to buy the book and work through the 21 different types of VR questions, and use the book to learn tricks to use to help you.

You are right that NVR is not taught anywhere. But you simply buy the CPG produced book and work through it. It is pretty straightforward. There are about 8 different things to look for in a NVR question, things like shading, number of sides of shapes, patterns etc.

It is often said that the exams include maths way beyond the level of year 5/6. I am a little skeptical about this. Ds is very good at maths, he got level 6 in year 6. He passed his 11+ to a super selective grammar. He was put into the top set, and they then covered lots of the things he had done for level 6.
I know that our area is not nearly as competitive as some, but the school was not expecting the kids to be at year 8 level at all as they came into year 7.

Dd1 has just passed her 11+. (CEM test) She passed well enough that she is guaranteed a place at the super selective. We covered all the material in the CPG books. I made her know it well. It was all school based curriculum that she had covered in school, but she needed to know it so she could use it very quickly. She said the exam was easier than the practice book, as were the NVR questions.

[FlumePlume]

Thanks, all. I'm looking at private too, as we're in SW London so there's just one super elective grammar. I'd like to find somewhere that is a good fit for her - it's not just about the academic side, though I do want her to go somewhere where she has a peer group that means she gets used to not being top of the class. I know peoplewho had a massive shock when they got to Oxford and found they weren't the brightest person around for the first time in their experience

[sunnydayinmay]

The place to find out about the actual content is the elevenplusforum. They break it down into geographical areas, and know their stuff. You can buy resources too. Slightly scary at times, though.

[Buttwing]

Steppemum that's really interesting what you say. I'm wondering if different areas have different things in their 11+/entrance exams? Where I am (Trafford) each school has its own entrance exam and each school paper was very different for example some schools have non verbal reasoning in their paper. Without a tutor (or me teaching it) my daughter wouldn't have stood a chance as this subject isn't taught at her primary.
Also for one of the schools we were advised that the maths in the exam paper was equivalent to y8 maths so again without a tutor (or again me teaching it) she would have struggled. This school is particularly hard to get into though.
That said one of the other schools I think with a bit of exam practice she would have been fine without a tutor. They take the top 30% opposed to the other school which take the top 10%.

It's not all about getting them into the "best" grammar for me though. She passed the especially difficult one and would get a place as we are walking distance but she has chose to go to the easier one to get into. We felt it was a much more caring school and felt the pastoral care seemed so much better.

[PerspicaciaTick]

DD's teacher identified her as grammar school potential in October Y4 and suggested we consider tutoring as the school didnt do any 11+ prep. We went to grammar school open days in June of Y4 to see if they appealed to DD. Then she had an assessment with a Tutor in June Y4, who said DD was a good candidate and we booked her place from Sept Y5. Knowing what I know now, I suspect we could have delayed until January Y5.

[steppemum]

this is what tutoring or preparation will add (and you can do it all yourself, and it doesn't need to be from year 3/4)

1. increase her vocab. This is key, it has been said that 11+ is lost on vocab. Lots of 'old fashioned' words too, so reading older books/classics is good. As she reads a lot, get her to keep a notebook and write down any new word, or post it note on the page. Then once a week make a list and add definitions. I find adding antonyms helps too. Then learn them.
   

1. make sure she is up to quick fire speed on mental maths. This means times tables, including inverse (so 12 divided by 3=4) and also quick addition and subtraction 100-46= etc.
   

1. Going through the curriculum (and pretty much everything in 11+ is now in the year 6 curriculum so SHOULD have been taught, but may not if you have a bad school) Make sure she really knows it.
   

eg internal angles of triangle add up to 180
definition of mean median and mode
can do long multiplication quickly with paper and pencil
definition of noun, verb, etc alliteration, simile,

1. exam practice with playing with words (finding synonyms, find the word hidden in the sentence etc - VR)
   

5 exam technique. Things like always filling in an answer, practice being timed, knowing that if you get stuck you must move on.

You can do it yourself.

BUT my ds HATED doing any preparation at all with me, and fought against it all the way. Doing a little and often from year 3 was not going to happen with him. So we did it from Jan year 5, once a week, and it was non negotiable time. He is very bright, he could do it all, he didn't want to do it at home with mum. That is when a tutor would have been amazing.