11+ SW London. Idiots Guide

[notlikeanyother]

Outing myself but for the last year we have been expecting to move to Europe next month as Dh's department was being transferred. I was very happy with this but DH has just been offered a great job here and wants to stay. Problem is DS is Yr 5 in state primary and I haven't given a thought to secondary schools as it wasn't going to be an issue. Options here aren't great and if I'd known we might have moved but not really time for that before Oct applications now, and all 3 DC are happy in primary.

So, friends have suggested he should be sitting the 11+ but I have absolutely no idea how it works. DS has always been right at the top of his classes for English and in the top group for Maths but I don't think he's ever really been expected to extend himself. Was 4a across the board at the end of Yr4.

How do I know if its even worth him sitting the 11+? I don't want the whole experience to dent his confidence if he fails just because we started too late.

Is it possible to get him through ourselves? I am very English language orientated and have journalist training so confident in English papers. DH has Maths degree, although not a huge amount of time if starting new job.

What is Verbal reasoning and non verbal reasoning about?

What would we need to purchase to tutor him if we do decide to do it?

Aaargh. Feeling we've failed him really as no doubt if we'd been planning this a year ago he'd be well up to speed now. He doesn't mind studying although much prefers playing sport.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[TeddTess]

My experience too is that they really enjoy the 1:1 experience with a tutor, lots of praise and work pitched right to their level.

[MrsCakesPrecognitionisSwitched]

A decent tutor shouldn't make it feel like slog nor, if he is as naturally bright as you say, will your DS find it particularly hard. DD thoroughly enjoyed the work she did for the 11+. I think she enjoyed bring stretched a little and succeeding and getting praise from people other than the usual suspects. And she wasn't close to the levels your DS has been working at.

[Bazelle]

If I were you I would get him assessed by a reputable 11+ tutor to get an idea of his chances and the amount of work he would need to put in. It might not be that bad at all. And give him lots of rewards for effort. All this hard work would not be wasted IMO, if he doesn't get into a grammar school but get into a good comprehensive he would be put in the top set and is likely to do really well.

[SpecialDispensation]

In terms of motivation, a certain amount has to come from him.

We are in a grammar area, and we didn't actually visit the superselective he's going to at all, until after the results were out. We did, however, visit the local grammar and non selective schools so that DS could see where he might best fit. DS is very competitive and driven, so we thought the visit to the superselective might make him put undue pressure on himself. I think it was the right thing to do in our situation, but obviously everyone's child is different - it's about finding the best way to motivate your child without putting them under too much pressure.

But I also think it's about guiding them as a parent, and letting them have some input into the decision. After all, no one wants to be in a situation where an adult child of theirs says "Oh I was never given the chance to attend that school."

[SpecialDispensation]

I think you need to visit then potential schools with him, so he understands what the options are.

If he doesnt want to put the work in, there is little point considering a superselective.

[notlikeanyother]

Thanks all for the replies. Well it may well be a mute point. Dh accepted the new job and we told the DC we weren't moving after all. Broached the subject with DS about studying very hard for tests in September and he melted down. He's done 2 hours a week intense language study for almost a year, with lots of practicing at home. I thought he'd coped with it very well but he's furious about more intense study.

Obviously he's too young to make these decisions but I just don't know how to motivate him to start a new program now if he's already feeling burnt out with study. He's only 10.

[TeddTess]

i am not sure a debate about the merits or not on NVR is particularly helpful to the OP.
my experience is that anyone who gets the state grammars, who use NVR/VR do a HUGE amount of tutoring, papers, practice, mock tests etc.

then again these schools are super selective (Tiffin anyway) so you are talking about top 1% getting a place.

if you take the yr6 population as a whole and give them all a few practice papers/a bit of tuition then yes VR/NVR would i suspect indicate the top 10% of children by natural ability.

however you are only getting the top say 5-10% of children even attempting these tests as everyone knows how tough it is. And within that top 10% it IS all about practice speed practice speed familiarlity speed. I very much doubt they actually identify the top 1%.

and FWIW i think NVR is easier to teach than VR. it is definitely hard to get a child with limited vocab up to scratch with VR. Then again i'm not talking about average children, but pulling apart the super bright.

[AliceMcGee]

What the National Foundation for Educational research says about NVR

[Bazelle]

VR and NVR are highly teachable. A friend of mine got his son into Tiffin this year and this is ALL they did. But this year Tiffin will only test English and maths, first round will be multiple choice, second round traditional. I wouldn't rule out VR and NVR all together though as they can easily be included in English and maths papers. 4A in year 4 is good, but I would tutor. I have another friend whose son had a level 5 in year 4, they are not tutoring him but he goes to a good prep school and he has special work set for him and another clever boy in the library.

[TeddTess]

top tip for tutors by the way - see if they have any one off slots during a holiday break... if your ds seems easy to teach / a dead cert they will miraculously find a space.

that's how dd got one... of course i left it to yr5 too and they were all booked up.

[SpecialDispensation]

I'm not knowledgeable about Sutton grammars or Tiffin but DS recently sat the Kent 11+ ( English, Maths and Reasoning - verbal, non verbal and spatial ) and has a place at a sought after superselective.

I was led to believe reading MN and the eleven plus forum that to get into these type of schools one either had to be a genius or have a huge amount of time and money invested in one. This is certainly not the case for us.

I can't remember DSs levels at end of Y4 but suspect they were similar, he's a bright child but not a genius by any stretch. He's state educated at a local village school - good but not outstanding. We had a tutor for 45 minutes once a week during Y5, and did some extra homework over the summer - practice tests, so by no means are you too late. We paid a tutor for his expertise, time sourcing papers etc and because we felt DS would clash less with a tutor than with me - of course lots of people don't pay tutors and DIY very successfully.

Speed has been mentioned - certainly this was key in the Kent test this year, which is where practice can be useful. But like I said, you definitely aren't too late.

[TeddTess]

when over 2000 are applying for 120-150 spaces, speed is the differentiator, not whether you can answer the questions or not... yes maybe it only takes 5 papers to get the hang of it, but if you do enough papers/books/tutor sessions you will have seen every question, they are not that exhaustive for the state grammars, and speed is the key.

[TeddTess]

we will have to agree to disagree

the only kids i know who have got into Tiffin have been coached and coached and coached on NVR and VR.

the schools admit as such, hence their decision to move away from it! They are finding kids can get 100% in the tests and then struggle so much in yr7 with maths & english that they have to bring tutors in.

[AliceMcGee]

Children improve with practice (which I am not convinced is the same as coaching) but research shows that after just 2 practice papers, 80% of the possible improvement has been made, and after 5 practice papers no further improvement is observed.

[AliceMcGee]

the whole point of using VR/NVR - basically intelligence tests, is that they0 do not rely on the pupil having been taught well, in the same way that maths and English tests do.g maths and English do.State schools are tyring to be as fair as possible and select the children with the highest innate ability regardless of their current attainment.
It is quite obvious why independents prefer to test for attainment because it means they have less to do to get that child to the GCSE A*!!!

[MinimalistMommi]

My DD had 4a's at end of year 4 and performed really well in 11 + mocks back in January, approx 80 % in Eng and VR, was average in maths in mocks. Her tutor was pleased as it was an early mock.

[MinimalistMommi]

Agree with Ted VR is highly coachable, need to learn question style for a start. Can't comment on NVR as my Dd isn't sitting that.

[TeddTess]

yes 4a yr4 is good. DD1 was that level at that point and got academic scholarship to selective independents.

[notlikeanyother]

Thanks everyone. Would be great if the VR and NVR were dropped as I feel Dh and I are strong in Maths & English and could buckle down to this. Will try and find a tutor but the two I have been recommended aren't taking on anymore students for this year's tests.

Independents really not an option. DH & I have 3 DC and we also have 2 DSs.

We currently live close to Coombe Boys and Girls, but don't go to a very local primary as we sold our family home last year and bought this one which we were planning to rent out after moving abroad. DH's new job has blown a very well thought out plan! Coombe girls is worth settling here for the DDs, just don't want to short change DS who has such great natural ability but isn't 'coached' for tests.

So, honest opinions. 4as at end of Yr4 (although the Math's one might be dubious!), no tutoring at all as yet. Worth a shot, even if we have to coach him ourselves?

[TeddTess]

BULLSHIT! NVR anyway is VERY HIGHLY coachable. hence why most of the independents have scrapped it.

tiffin girls has brought in a second stage maths/english test

i hear tiffin boys are scrapping it altogether and just going down the maths/english route (don't quote me on that).

[AliceMcGee]

research shows that vr/NVR ate not highly coachable.

[TeddTess]

get onto the Tiffin boys website/admissions and find out what the exam will consist of for his intake (i think it's changing). check the registration date too, it could be early (july for Tiffin girls iirc don't know re boys)

do the same for sutton.

which state school will you get allocated? what is it like? ie would it be ok or do you need to think about having an independent school as a back up? is independent even a consideration financially? If so, choose 3 (lots of advice on here, more than for the grammars i think).

[MinimalistMommi]

That why if you did go for it you would be wise to try and get him a tutor and give if a fighting chance. Someone up thread said its nine months, it's more like six months until my DD sits the 11 +! The majority of children will either be DIY'ing at home or will haven a tutor. The biggest thing is to find out exactly what he would be sitting and which examining board.

[notlikeanyother]

Thanks for replies.

Nowfeel- you're right I guess. I suppose I look at the homework set which doesn't really seem to have changed much in the last couple of years and is the same for the whole class. I also agree about the long division, DH taught him because he was surprised he couldn't do it. I'm not too convinced of the levels, DS is stronger at English than Maths but was given the same level for everything. At parents' evenings its never been suggested than his levels were much above the norm.

Oh I don't know, I did my primary years in the US and don't really recognise much about the British system and have been happy that the DC were progressing and were happy. I looked at the elevenplus forum and it seemed like people had been planning for years and years and we've missed the boat (hence my OP!)