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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

11+ SW London. Idiots Guide

36 replies

notlikeanyother · 16/03/2015 12:11

Outing myself but for the last year we have been expecting to move to Europe next month as Dh's department was being transferred. I was very happy with this but DH has just been offered a great job here and wants to stay. Problem is DS is Yr 5 in state primary and I haven't given a thought to secondary schools as it wasn't going to be an issue. Options here aren't great and if I'd known we might have moved but not really time for that before Oct applications now, and all 3 DC are happy in primary.

So, friends have suggested he should be sitting the 11+ but I have absolutely no idea how it works. DS has always been right at the top of his classes for English and in the top group for Maths but I don't think he's ever really been expected to extend himself. Was 4a across the board at the end of Yr4.

How do I know if its even worth him sitting the 11+? I don't want the whole experience to dent his confidence if he fails just because we started too late.

Is it possible to get him through ourselves? I am very English language orientated and have journalist training so confident in English papers. DH has Maths degree, although not a huge amount of time if starting new job.

What is Verbal reasoning and non verbal reasoning about?

What would we need to purchase to tutor him if we do decide to do it?

Aaargh. Feeling we've failed him really as no doubt if we'd been planning this a year ago he'd be well up to speed now. He doesn't mind studying although much prefers playing sport.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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marmaladegranny · 16/03/2015 12:22

There used to be some excellent verbal and non verbal reasoning books available in high street stationers - we used them to coach our 3 through 11+.
Caveat to this is that it may be out of date information but sure someone else will be along soon…..

MinimalistMommi · 16/03/2015 12:52

Pop into Google the 11 + forum and you should find help there. I would get a tutor ASAP as he hasn't been able to gently prepare since year 5 with you DIY at home. My DD is sitting this Sepetember.

MinimalistMommi · 16/03/2015 12:52

Meant to add she is being tutored.

Seeline · 16/03/2015 12:55

You need to check which papers are required for each school you are interested in sitting for. They don't all set all of them.

TeddTess · 16/03/2015 15:22

you've got loads of time, 9 months is plenty to get a bright child ready if you are realistic with his natural aptitude. what schools are you thinking of (or where are you and do you want co-ed or boys?)

TeddTess · 16/03/2015 15:23

not all schools do the VR/NVR, it is (too) highly coachable...

Original poster

notlikeanyother · 16/03/2015 17:32

We live in Kingston so I guess the Sutton grammars or Tiffin. He's certainly bright but his school doesn't do too much differentiation of work. This year his teacher's been pretty weak, but as it was only supposed to be for 2 terms I've let it ride. He and DD have also been focusing on learning an additional language for the last year ready for the move, so a lot of my attention has been taken up with that rather than pushing normal academics.

I guess I'm worried that although he's capable, he might not have time to cover the gaps between what school teaches and what is on the paper. For example his class hasn't touched on long division yet, DH showed him last weekend and he got in an hour or so, not sure how much he's missing though!

OP posts:

TeddTess · 16/03/2015 17:43

Tiffin is super selective so literally top 1 or 2% academically. very very tough to get in.

I would start by buying bond books and see how he gets on with the age 9-10 books in english and maths and then the 10-11. Also the VR and NVR books.

Original poster

notlikeanyother · 16/03/2015 18:03

Yes I know re the selectivity, that's the dilemma! I've no doubt in Yr 1 he was in the top 1-2%, he'd finished times tables in Yr 1 and was assessed with early teen reading age. But he was very shy and we've spent the last few years encouraging lots of extra curricular stuff which has been great for him. We know he's been coasting but were happy that he was developing so well socially and with his outside school activities that he'd have the capability to fly in his teens.

To be honest we were pretty nomadic until the last 7 years and never really expected to be facing the British secondary system.

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Bazelle · 16/03/2015 22:10

Elevenplus forum website is your destination, they have a section sutton, kingston etc.

Nowfeeltheneedtopost · 16/03/2015 22:21

To be fair, school must have been doing some differentiation of work if he was 4a at end of year 4. Given expectation that most students will reach level 4 by end year 6. But I am also surprised that you say he hasn't done long division? My DD isnt 4a yet and has definitely done long division. As others have said, check whether your target schools do VR and NVR. If they do, there are loads of practice books out there to buy. I'm not aware of any primary school that would prepare for Vr and NVR so up to you whether you choose to tutor/support yourself.

Original poster

notlikeanyother · 17/03/2015 10:21

Thanks for replies.

Nowfeel- you're right I guess. I suppose I look at the homework set which doesn't really seem to have changed much in the last couple of years and is the same for the whole class. I also agree about the long division, DH taught him because he was surprised he couldn't do it. I'm not too convinced of the levels, DS is stronger at English than Maths but was given the same level for everything. At parents' evenings its never been suggested than his levels were much above the norm.

Oh I don't know, I did my primary years in the US and don't really recognise much about the British system and have been happy that the DC were progressing and were happy. I looked at the elevenplus forum and it seemed like people had been planning for years and years and we've missed the boat (hence my OP!)

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MinimalistMommi · 17/03/2015 10:25

That why if you did go for it you would be wise to try and get him a tutor and give if a fighting chance. Someone up thread said its nine months, it's more like six months until my DD sits the 11 +! The majority of children will either be DIY'ing at home or will haven a tutor. The biggest thing is to find out exactly what he would be sitting and which examining board.

TeddTess · 17/03/2015 10:28

get onto the Tiffin boys website/admissions and find out what the exam will consist of for his intake (i think it's changing). check the registration date too, it could be early (july for Tiffin girls iirc don't know re boys)

do the same for sutton.

which state school will you get allocated? what is it like? ie would it be ok or do you need to think about having an independent school as a back up? is independent even a consideration financially? If so, choose 3 (lots of advice on here, more than for the grammars i think).

AliceMcGee · 17/03/2015 10:29

research shows that vr/NVR ate not highly coachable.

TeddTess · 17/03/2015 10:30

BULLSHIT! NVR anyway is VERY HIGHLY coachable. hence why most of the independents have scrapped it.

tiffin girls has brought in a second stage maths/english test

i hear tiffin boys are scrapping it altogether and just going down the maths/english route (don't quote me on that).

Original poster

notlikeanyother · 17/03/2015 11:13

Thanks everyone. Would be great if the VR and NVR were dropped as I feel Dh and I are strong in Maths & English and could buckle down to this. Will try and find a tutor but the two I have been recommended aren't taking on anymore students for this year's tests.

Independents really not an option. DH & I have 3 DC and we also have 2 DSs.

We currently live close to Coombe Boys and Girls, but don't go to a very local primary as we sold our family home last year and bought this one which we were planning to rent out after moving abroad. DH's new job has blown a very well thought out plan! Coombe girls is worth settling here for the DDs, just don't want to short change DS who has such great natural ability but isn't 'coached' for tests.

So, honest opinions. 4as at end of Yr4 (although the Math's one might be dubious!), no tutoring at all as yet. Worth a shot, even if we have to coach him ourselves?

OP posts:

TeddTess · 17/03/2015 11:37

yes 4a yr4 is good. DD1 was that level at that point and got academic scholarship to selective independents.

MinimalistMommi · 17/03/2015 13:19

Agree with Ted VR is highly coachable, need to learn question style for a start. Can't comment on NVR as my Dd isn't sitting that.

MinimalistMommi · 17/03/2015 13:22

My DD had 4a's at end of year 4 and performed really well in 11 + mocks back in January, approx 80 % in Eng and VR, was average in maths in mocks. Her tutor was pleased as it was an early mock.

AliceMcGee · 17/03/2015 14:14

the whole point of using VR/NVR - basically intelligence tests, is that they0 do not rely on the pupil having been taught well, in the same way that maths and English tests do.g maths and English do.State schools are tyring to be as fair as possible and select the children with the highest innate ability regardless of their current attainment.
It is quite obvious why independents prefer to test for attainment because it means they have less to do to get that child to the GCSE A*!!!

AliceMcGee · 17/03/2015 14:18

Children improve with practice (which I am not convinced is the same as coaching) but research shows that after just 2 practice papers, 80% of the possible improvement has been made, and after 5 practice papers no further improvement is observed.

TeddTess · 17/03/2015 14:24

we will have to agree to disagree

the only kids i know who have got into Tiffin have been coached and coached and coached on NVR and VR.

the schools admit as such, hence their decision to move away from it! They are finding kids can get 100% in the tests and then struggle so much in yr7 with maths & english that they have to bring tutors in.

TeddTess · 17/03/2015 14:26

when over 2000 are applying for 120-150 spaces, speed is the differentiator, not whether you can answer the questions or not... yes maybe it only takes 5 papers to get the hang of it, but if you do enough papers/books/tutor sessions you will have seen every question, they are not that exhaustive for the state grammars, and speed is the key.

SpecialDispensation · 17/03/2015 18:33

I'm not knowledgeable about Sutton grammars or Tiffin but DS recently sat the Kent 11+ ( English, Maths and Reasoning - verbal, non verbal and spatial ) and has a place at a sought after superselective.

I was led to believe reading MN and the eleven plus forum that to get into these type of schools one either had to be a genius or have a huge amount of time and money invested in one. This is certainly not the case for us.

I can't remember DSs levels at end of Y4 but suspect they were similar, he's a bright child but not a genius by any stretch. He's state educated at a local village school - good but not outstanding. We had a tutor for 45 minutes once a week during Y5, and did some extra homework over the summer - practice tests, so by no means are you too late. We paid a tutor for his expertise, time sourcing papers etc and because we felt DS would clash less with a tutor than with me - of course lots of people don't pay tutors and DIY very successfully.

Speed has been mentioned - certainly this was key in the Kent test this year, which is where practice can be useful. But like I said, you definitely aren't too late.

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