State -v- Private

[aim1ee]

Having experienced both I feel in a position to comment. Our views - the assumption that because you are paying independent school fees that the education and care must be better, is an absolute myth. State education is excellent; provided by qualified teachers often with teaching assistants/trainee teachers in the class together, after school clubs and sport, breakfast clubs, regular sight of books, pastoral care and parental involvement. Especially good advice on internet safety and how numeracy and literacy are taught - even parents' lessons! Most special needs and disabled children are integrated into a happy community. On the other hand we found private schools are elitest, one or two really rude and nasty parents, inadequate leadership by Heads, only one class teacher (sometimes unqualified), short staffed, absent pastoral support, inadequate school reports downloaded from the internet with a few chosen phrases slotted in, school's own policies not adhered to, expensive uniform some of which went missing, overlong holidays. Without doubt State is best.

[GooseyLoosey]

Why should they be abolished?

There is choice in all aspects of life dependant on wealth. One of the things that inspired me to do what I do was so I could have the money to make choices that were not open to my parents.

That may not be fair to other people who do not have those choices but unless you are an advocate of a socialist utopia where each only gets what he needs, that lack of fairness is inherent in the society we live in. However, it stems from the type of society we live in which allows for social mobility and aspirations and I would not want that to change.

Neither dh or I had a bean growing up. We aspired to more and were lucky enough to get it. Part of that is having choices for our children tha were not open to us.

[CokeFan]

Hakluyt we have a progressive tax system which charges people who earn more more of their income (tax avoiders and dodgy accountants aside). You could argue that by choosing to pay for education for their children out of already taxed income, these parents are voluntarily paying more tax. I don't think you could realistically get rid of charitable status for schools that already exist - just make the conditions more rigorous, which has already been done. I don't know whether it would be possible to set up a new school run purely as a business. Maybe these already exist?

Unless you're prepared to move house then (except for boarding schools and HE) you've got a limited number of schools to pick from. Your perception of how good or bad the state vs private sectors are is going to be based on these schools. Since not all state schools are the same standard, or all private schools come to that, then everyone's view is going to be different.

[aim1ee]

Interesting views here - thanks to Sunflower - I don't feel quite so isolated now. Went to a private prep. and public school myself (not happy experience) We did our homework, looked at 9 prep. schools and 4 State but made some ghastly mistakes. Only found Mumsnet recently. I was afraid to complain in case children suffered the backlash; that was until I found that at one of the schools, a governor and others had similar concerns. It was an overwhelmingly lonely experience. It would have been helpful to speak to other parents beforehand but would they have been willing? Returning to a State school which encourages children to succeed as well as becoming decent citizens, has been like coming home. Thanks everyone.

[KnittedJimmyChoos]

but unless you are an advocate of a socialist utopia where each only gets what he needs, that lack of fairness is inherent in the society we live in

Maybe Hack is in favour of this ^.

[KnittedJimmyChoos]

Products of these schools have never had to play or work with anyone 'different' or with different needs

I beg to differ. Many fee paying schools have children with all sort of disabilities, as mentioned on this very thread.

[SunnyBaudelaire]

I suppose some of them must, choo, but it has certainly escaped my notice. I mean in the area with lots of little private schools where we used to live.

[KnittedJimmyChoos]

What, that schools with uncommitted parents do better? Really?

No, that not every single parent whose child attends a fee paying school is invested in their education.

Its been said a billion times before, but there are GP paying fee's, lots of them...Parents who want the job of education being left to the school and washing their hands of it, many parents, parents who feel because they are paying, little susie must not be forced to do x y or z, or be told off for y.

Also you have the parents who have issues just like every other human on this planet has the potential too....affecting the children. And many other variables besides.

[Hakluyt]

"but unless you are an advocate of a socialist utopia where each only gets what he needs,,

No. But I am pretty sure that private schools should'nt get more than £165m in tax breaks every yeat because of their "charitable status"!

[morethanpotatoprints]

So why shouldn't private schools have charitable status?
People moan about the unfairness of private schools, how these kids should be in state schools etc.
The charitable status enables children from less privileged backgrounds to access private education.
They complain about lack of opportunity for social mobility yet call to abolish charitable status for the schools that help.

[Hakluyt]

"The charitable status enables children from less privileged backgrounds to access private education."

Really? How, precisely? Certainly the Charity Commissioners wouldn't agree.......

[SunnyBaudelaire]

really do you believe that prints?
OK you try to phone Brighton College or one of those little private schools in Hampstead and ask about how to get your state educated child a scholarship. Just try.

[KnittedJimmyChoos]

The amount of parents with dc in private is a tiny percent.

Of that tiny percent some, but certainly not all of those parents are going to be very engaged in their dc education.

That tiny % of a tiny % is not going to suddenly make all state schools fabulous.

Most parents in UK have dc in state schools and there will be a far larger amount of invested parents already using state.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Is it not the case that charitable status enables children was less privileged backgrounds to attend.
We were told that unless the school had this status the funding would not exist.
Perhaps i am wrong then and you can all educate me ( no sarcy tone here)
It says on the website that most children receive gov awards to attend.
Is this not because the school has charitable status?

[Hakluyt]

"That tiny % of a tiny % is not going to suddenly make all state schools fabulous."

Of course isn't. But it is one of the things that makes fabulous private schools fabulous.

[SunnyBaudelaire]

Maybe that happens with some private schools, morethan, but not in many. IME. where do these 'gov awards' come from exactly? Are you sure they are not a figment of the school's imagination.
Because I know that if I went to the local authority and asked for one, I would be laughed out of the office.
Of course just like the GAPS scheme it is always the sharpest elbowed and most MC parents that access such opportunities.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Sunny

Its a specialist school that offers music awards. You pay fees on a sliding scale.
If for example neither of your parents work you would receive an award for the full fees presently around 31K I believe.
It is quite selective though.

[SunnyBaudelaire]

I think you should seriously question whether you want your child in a school like that prints.
And it will not be the 'poor but bright' child that gets a place, it will be an impoverished MC kid with a sharp elbowed mother.
No offence meant to you at all.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Sorry, meant to add there are about 8 of these schools in total throughout the uk.

[Hakluyt]

morethan- most private schools do not operate in the way the specialist school you are talking about does.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Sunny

You would think so and so did we until we visited.
There are really more poor than rich and they really do manage their aims well from what we hear from present students.
For a specialist school they did really well in GCSE's this year and are in the top 100 league table even though the emphasis isn't on academic.

AIMS

1. To educate and unlock the talent of musically gifted children between the age of 8 and 18 whatever their social, racial and cultural background.
   

1. To provide as broad an academic curriculum as is possible within a specialist school.
   

1. To develop the whole person, furthering the spiritual, moral, social and cultural development of each student.
   

My point is if you don't allow schools like this you are saying that gifted children who aren't rich can't access such education.
I hear its the same for the dance schools too.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Hak

Of course not I appreciate this, but when you are saying that charitable status shouldn't be given unless you are going to make one rule for one school and one for another, you unfortunately include these schools too.
Not one posh car on the car park

[SunnyBaudelaire]

well that does sound good prints.
But you do not GET musically 'gifted' children unless their parents have paid for lessons from the get go, do you? and then know how to access such schools as well? It would seem that only a certain type of child is even going to HEAR about these places, let alone go there.

[Hakluyt]

"There are really more poor than rich"

So where do they get their cash from?

[Hakluyt]

Because while the charitable tax breaks add up to about £165m that is only about 4 lots of fees from each private school in the country, I think. That's not going to let a school have more poor than rich pupils........

[KnittedJimmyChoos]

But it is one of the things that makes fabulous private schools fabulous

I doubt it. Of course its a positive but many other things will help.
Id say even if the parents have no interest whatsoever in child education aside from paying, is that they will more likely be educated to some degree which would help.