Part time start- school wont even discuss it

[EnglishRose1320]

I posted once or twice before about my concerns over DS2 starting school in September (probably just a fussy mum!)

He isn't the youngest of the year, he will be the oldest of the summer term children so still quite young, nowadays with all children starting in September I was hoping that the school would allow him to do a staggered start and build up to full time. Currently he still sleeps most days for anything from half an hour to 3 hours and I just can't see him managing a whole week without getting really run down.

I mentioned my concerns to the head of the foundation unit and he e-mailed the head teacher- the response I got was that they will not discuss it unless there is medical evidence. I feel quite disappointed that they wont even have a conversation about it.

Any advice r.e what I can do next?

I know I could defer him by a term or two, however ideally I want him to start with his peers.

Having worked in several schools within this council I am very surprised by the attitude of this school and wasn't expecting this response at all.

[Sirzy]

I would start full time and see how it goes, you can only know how he is going to respond when he had been in the position. If he is struggling them discuss with them about part time, you may be amazed though and he will just have normal "just srtarted school" tiredness

[prh47bridge]

Given that the Admission Code explicitly gives parents the right to request that their child attend part time my view is that a refusal to even discuss it unless there is medical evidence is a clear breach. I would refer them to Admissions Code paragraph 2.16 and tell them that unless they permit your child to attend part time you will refer the matter to the LGO (unless it is an academy or free school in which case you need the EFA rather than the LGO).

[WastingMyYoungYears]

Oh English, this sounds difficult. Is there no point discussing this with the school again?

I'd worry about sending your DC full time to begin with, in case it all goes very badly, and they then have a negative start to school. A gentler introduction part time would be best, but could you just keep them at home 1 or 2 days per week?

[WastingMyYoungYears]

I like prh's approach too, if they're being obtuse / unhelpful, fight them.

I just re-read your OP and see that your DC still naps during the day - make sure that you tell them this, pointing out the effect that it will have on the teacher (ie not just on your child). We're in a similar situation, and our DC is going to school in the mornings only for the first term.

[EnglishRose1320]

I just feel really silly that I didn't look into it sooner, the school were so helpful when we moved here a year ago and really helped our eldest DS settle despite his difficulties, so I didn't even think to check about part time until a couple of weeks ago because I assumed they would be fine about it.

prh- what is LGO- sorry I am probably being daft- I have contacted my local council school admissions team and they have said they are happy for him to delay by a term but it totally the schools choice regarding part time.

Wasting- I would love to discuss it with the school, don't really feel I have at all yet, the head of the foundation unit will speak to me but all he will say is the head has to make the choice and the head hasn't spoken to me at all.

Sirzy- after one long day this weekend of actually having a day out rather than a quiet day as DS normally needs and trying to get him up this morning was terrible, we can't even have a really active week long holiday without him struggling so I really think it is inevitable that he won't cope, I hope not, I would love to be proven wrong but I can't see it happening.

[prh47bridge]

LGO = Local Government Ombudsman. They may want you to exhaust the school's complaints procedure before they would look at this. It is also possible the LGO would say this falls outside their remit - there have unfortunately been a few issues where the LGO say this is one for the Schools Adjudicator and the Adjudicator says it is for the LGO, which leaves parents with nowhere to go unless they want to risk judicial review. But the threat of an LGO reference may be enough to make the school think again.

[5madthings]

I can't believe the school are being so obnoxious over this!

My ds3 was part time till Easter and turned five in the Dec so technically should have been full time after the Xmas break but they agreed it made no sense to have an over tired, miserable child at school!

Ds4 started full time straight away and was fine, though did have the odd day off if he was exhausted. The School understood that they are little and sometimes just need a day to rest, it's something they grow out of.

I can understand your reluctance to annoy the school but you have tried to be nice and discuss it so I would just do as prh says and send them a letter referring to the relevant legislation. Maybe they know the rules but hoped they could dissuade you and if you show them you know the rules they will back down? You would hope so!

[EnglishRose1320]

I think I might have to go down that route, I hate making a fuss about anything but am prepared if needed for the sake of the boys.

I am going to try and get an actual meeting booked for the end of this week when my OH is back from work and can come and back me up- if they wont agree to that then I am going to have to do lots of thinking and make lots of phone calls over the summer and see what I can come up with.

[AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore]

Why can't he start and then see how he goes. He may surprise you. If he struggles then use this as the evidence you need?

My ds2 is a late summer baby. He was still taking naps in the afternoon after nursery/preschool during the mornings. During the six week summer break between that and the start of reception, I tried to alter his schedule slightly so that he was edging towards 3pm for his nap with a short nap and then early bedtime. It was a bit iffy, but once he started in reception, it ironed out fairly quickly.

Yes, he ended up taking a short nap practically every day after school for the first couple months. But he's fine now. No naps, some days a bit grizzly from being tired, but overall just fine.

I think that you might want to consider at least letting him try it. You won't know if he'll manage it unless you let him try. If not, then use that as evidence that another approach needs to be taken. He may do just fine. I was actually quite surprised with ds2 as I truly didn't think he'd manage, but I figured I would let him go FT and see how he did.

[ohthegoats]

Speaking as a teacher, I would suggest that you start them full time and see how it goes. So much important stuff goes on at the beginning of a new year - they'll find it much harder to catch up socially (and behaviourally) if they don't start with everyone else. We had three reluctant mums last September, all wanting to start them part time, full time at Christmas, but the EYFS teacher convinced them to give it a go. She didn't have any issues with those three at all, and the mums were pleasantly surprised. Time was given for napping if they wanted it etc.

Conversely we had a child arrive new to the area at Easter, who hadn't been to school yet, and he has had some serious problems with the other children for this stage of his development - he's staying down in reception next term because he's just not ready to be in year 1. I'd be more concerned about that than a period of time with a tired child earlier on in the year.

[EnglishRose1320]

Alice- we have been trying that, the trouble is he is so hard to wake up after that short nap- you can stand him up and other him chocolate and he will refuse to wake up and then it goes on till bedtime or later and then he wakes up at the wrong time- I might try a bit longer at it but it makes he so weepy and miserable- I'm not convinced he should be unhappy/unsettled in order for him to be 'ready' for school, it's a tricky one.

Ohthegoats- he already attends the foundation unit as a nursery child and is very well adapted socially, not sending him at all for a term or so would be a step back socially but not terrible.
Also I am 99% sure the teachers wont have any issues with him, he is very well behaved and apart from sucking his thumb all the time and being quiet and sleepy in the afternoon they will not see how it affects him, it is missing out on dinner because of tiredness/ screaming and hitting at bedtime due to being over tired/ constant colds and cough- sticky eyes when he wakes up etc- yes he will manage the 9-3 just about but at what cost to his health and happiness?

I am prepared to listen and be reassured if they can put a plan in place where he doesn't have to go full pelt the whole school day but at the minute my main concern is the lack of communication about it.

[SixImpossible]

You know that, as a rising-five, he does not have to be at school at all. His absence or attendance do not count towards the figures over which the school have to be held to account.

If you come to collect him after lunch, what will they do? Refuse to let you have him? Of course not! Refuse to allow him to return the following day? Of course not!

I really think you are over-thinking this. If the school will not make a formal arrangement for him to go part-time, then you just, quietly, unfussily, informally, ensure that he does so.

[prh47bridge]

I would not be as confident as SixImpossible that the school will do nothing. The head appears to believe that they have the right to decide whether or not a child can attend part time. I would therefore expect them to do something to prevent a parent regularly removing their child in this way. They could, for example, refuse to allow the child to return to school unless the parent commits to leaving them all day every day.

[Jenny70]

How does theschool arrange start of term? Our reception children started 2 weeks later than main school and first term was half days (now it's until half term, I think). Is it worth waiting until after the summer, try to reduce day naps to tv time after lunch (rather than bed napping)? Then if he's still like this, speak to school at start of term.

Mine were "committed nappers" and low energy children, but did cope full time, just. I fed them tea as they walked in door, then if they slept early, they were fed. Then did second tea with family and if they ate well it was a bonus.

Drop all after school clubs, put swimming on weekend and plan after school as quiet down time. Hard if older one is committed to things, but call in favours to share pickups etc.

Only other point is for my ds, half days were still tiring as he had to walk back to school an extra time (or 2) to get other children. He would have been better chilling at school rather than back and forth.

[SixImpossible]

But, prh47bridge, would not refusing to allow the child back into school be, effectively, excluding them? Could a school reasonably exclude a child for non-attendance when their attendance is not even obligatory?

(BTW, EnglishRose, I defer to prh47's opinion here. They are well-known on the school boards for giving good, knowledgeable advice regarding school entry.)

[AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore]

Yes, most schools have a slow build up to full time days for reception children starting out. Usually it's part days for a couple weeks, but sometimes it's full days but not every day. Each school is different. What is the plan your school has in place for this? That could make a huge difference if it's part days for a few weeks.

yes he will manage the 9-3 just about but at what cost to his health and happiness?

I think you're overthinking this and overdramatizing somewhat. This is presumably a healthy child that will be 4yo when school starts. LOTS of 4yos will be tired and cranky after reception classes the first few months. LOTS of them will have to juggle their sleep schedule or take naps after school for awhile until they get the balance right.

Unless your child has a specific medical problem (and I am including SNs in that), there is no reason to think he won't adapt. I understand that you're concerned. LOTS of parents are. But you're not even willing to let him try it full time to see how he'll do - you're just assuming he won't handle it. You're not doing him any favours here.

I do get where you're coming from on this, I really do. Four seems so very young to start full time schooling. I am originally from the states, so am used to children going part time at 5yo and fulltime at 6yo, so yes 4yo seems very young to me. But despite my reservations, I allowed my dcs to go to full time reception as their peers did, and it all worked out fine. I really didn't think ds2 would manage it (was still napping in afternoon, very young for his age), but he surprised me entirely and did fine (he's just finishing up his reception year now). Both are summer babies, one is disabled, and one has SNs, so even with those added in to the mix, they did okay.

[EnglishRose1320]

Six- I worry that would ruin any relationship I have with the school- which seeing as potentially he is going to be there for 7 years might be quite awkward.

Jenny- straight in full time from day one- the only concession being that the nursery aged children start 1 week later so the unit is not so loud for the first week. With regards to dropping after school activities- I have reduced DS1's as much as possible but for various reasons he needs routine and we will still have to take him to clubs on Wednesday and Friday- won't let anyone else take him swimming on Wed but hopefully have someone lined up for his club on Friday.

Should be getting a message from the head of the unit today- he wanted to discuss it further with the head last night so I will see if that has helped at all.

Prh- thanks for all your advice

[jaynebxl]

Awful. I can't believe they're not at all flexible. I've taught FS lots and inflexibility is counter productive. If I was you I'd probably send him full days but be liberal in the number of days he takes off as a catch up.

[jaynebxl]

And I'd definitely be pushomg it at County level.

[prh47bridge]

Could a school reasonably exclude a child for non-attendance when their attendance is not even obligatory?

The school is already on dodgy ground by insisting that they will only allow part time attendance if there is medical evidence. I therefore wouldn't necessarily expect them to behave reasonably. I would expect them to want to enforce their position otherwise, in their view, they will be opening the floodgates to part time attendance. So yes, I think they would be on very dodgy ground if they excluded a child in these circumstances but it would not surprise me if they did so. They probably wouldn't consider it as an exclusion on the basis that the child is under school age.

[smellyfishead]

I have to laugh at the amount of posters saying oh he'll be ok, send him and see how it goes! are you parents who didn't consider it or couldn't for some reason? smacks a bit of bitterness/jealousy! how do they miss loads if they dont start in sept?! reception yr is mainly playing anyway! cant see why others get so incensed by other people not sending their child into school September!

the only ones who should be able to tell if the child is ready is the PARENTS, not the LEA, not the head or the teachers or other parents, but the person who knows them best!!

I would not agree with a try him and see approach, you could be setting yourself up for more problems ime.

still intending on a new yr start here too, prob about april/may time hopefully.

Just in case people aren't aware, the free 15hrs of nursery that the government pay for is paid up to their 5th birthday so if people are deferring starting you can still send them to nursery for 15hrs free .

[AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore]

fishead really? Perhaps a quick review of the OP is in order then. She's not stated that emotionally he can't cope, or that he has any medical problems, or that he is not up to what they will be doing by way of curriculum. She's not mentioned any coordination/physical problems or delays. No verbal issues. She's even stated that he is well adapted socially, so that's not an issue.

He takes naps. That's it. She wants to delay his education and is kicking off over naps. That he will be growing out of shortly anyway, most likely. So she delays it until January or puts him on part time until then. If he is still taking naps, what then? Try to delay it further? What if he continues? Year 1? Delayed or part time due to naps? Where is she going to draw the line?

Do you really not see that this is leaning into overprotective parent land here?

[SixImpossible]

No, it is not leading into overprotective parenting.

This situation is a product of the weird British curriculum, that wedged children into formal education as early as possible, whether or not the child is ready for it.

Some children need more sleep than others. Some children outgriw the need for naps later than others. An individual child's developmental need should not be over-ruled for administrative reasons. Neither should his non-school activities be totally curtailed in order to facilitate this administrative issue.

A term or six months is a large proportion of a 4yo's life. By January he may no longer need to nap every day.

[AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore]

I posted once or twice before about my concerns over DS2 starting school in September (probably just a fussy mum!)

Any advice r.e what I can do next?

You posted yourself that "probably just a fussy mum" and asked advice. You may not like all the advice given. But still remains that in every other area of his development, you have stated he is fine. So the only reason you're considering holding off school is due to naps. Sounds overprotective a bit.

[AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore]

sorry, distracted and thought you were the OP. But still stands that the OP posted that and it's coming down to just naps.