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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Do 'average' kids who work well get overlooked? Teachers perspective welcome.

94 replies

YukonHo · 06/11/2013 18:28

Dd is a hard worker, she tries her best, is good in class. Her teachers words not mine. She is in a class that spreads across 2 years. Her class has four 'sets' lets call them a,b,c,d, a being top etc. she is in B set. Most of her year are in a.

DH and I are both fairly academic, both with degrees, DH has two. We have always been interested involved parents where work is concerned. I help out at the school several times a month and so know the other kids, and to me there is no clear reason why she is in the lower of the two sets for that year. I am worried it is because she IS such an easy kid to teach that she gets missed in favour of the strugglers and g&t kids in her class.

Fwiw, she is doing well on levels, she's just started y4 and is on 3b for maths and 3a for English. BUT this is a below average achievement for her year, and I think she is capable of being at least as good as the others in her class. I'm not expecting miracles, nor I believe she is a 'genius' but after parents evening tonight I'm left with the impression that because she's doing OK they are not trying to spur her on further...unlike the very clever kids in her class. (Her head actually said 'well she's on 3b and that's where she should be at the end of the year.' This is all very well but you don't stop stretching a child just because they have hit the average right??)

So, am I being a pushy parent or should I have cause for concern that they are not pushing her?

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ipadquietly · 08/11/2013 22:46

Why are they 'down the swaney' at the end of Y2? I don't understand. They have 4 more years until they leave Y6. ALL school are aiming for good progress. A 2A child at the end of Y2 should be pushed to get L5 to make GOOD progress.

All schools must be pushing children to exceed their 'average achievement' , as that's Ofsted's thrust of the moment.

ipadquietly · 08/11/2013 22:48

Children who don't get L3 fit into the group who are expected to achieve 2+ levels by the end of Y6. 2 levels' progress will be 'expected' and 'room for improvement' ; 2+ levels (e.g. 2c to 4b) will be 'good progress'. Schools want GOOD progress!

(All this is measured in numbers (APS) at the moment.)

Retropear · 08/11/2013 22:50

Well we shall see.The cynic in me thinks that the covert tutoring etc and a smarmy head with the gift of the gab,a high proportion getting 4s will appease many an Ofsted team.

Lets hope I'm wrong.

Either way it won't help my dc.

Snowbility · 08/11/2013 22:51

Because a summer born dc will have more catching up to do, so they should make more progress than autumn burns if they are to catch up. My dcs were just 4 when they started reception, I'm lead to believe they should catch up, if that's the case then Ofsted should demand they make more progress but they don't, do they?

ipadquietly · 08/11/2013 22:54

snow It's worked out on the progress of the individual child - when they're born has nothing to do with it.

Snowbility · 08/11/2013 22:55

Exactly! My August born dcs are not expected to catch up in the current system.

Retropear · 08/11/2013 22:56

It has everything to do with it as does maturity and previous teaching.

Figures aren't real children.

Retropear · 08/11/2013 22:57

My very immature dc who had the shitiest year 2 isn't either.

Snowbility · 08/11/2013 22:59

iPad you seriously believe that summer borns and autumn borns have the same levels of maturity and achievement in YR?

Retropear · 08/11/2013 23:01

Or that all children mature at exactly the same time.

Many kids Sep and August born would rather be up a tree in year 2 than getting good Sats results.

ipadquietly · 08/11/2013 23:04

No, it doesn't in the 'data'.
A child (who may be immature and young in the year) may enter y1 as a !c. They may make slower progress than expected and attain 2a by the end of Y2. By the end of Y6, they may have made meteoric progress (because they have caught up developmentally?) and attained L6, hence making OUTSTANDING progress.

Another older child may have entered Y1 as a 1a because s/he was more mature at the age of 5. That same child may also attain a 2a by the end of Y2, but only a L4 by the end of Y6 - this would be 'expected' progress, not 'good progress'.

Each individual child is tracked through the school.

Snowbility · 08/11/2013 23:05

Agree pear, progress in neat categories is a pile of rubbish and teachers focusing on all kids evenly is a pile of rubbish too.

Retropear · 08/11/2013 23:07

Maybe they should be helped to make meteoric progress instead of being left to do it themselves whilst resources and expectations are focused on the disruptive,the risky level 4s and the top 10%.

Retropear · 08/11/2013 23:09

We all know it happens Snow.

It's sad as only those who have parents with a very thick skin will stand a chance re getting the grades they're capable of.

ipadquietly · 08/11/2013 23:10

Oh FGS - all kids in Y2 would prefer to be up trees!

IMHO Ofsted is a pile of rubbish, Michael Gove is an evil gnome and it is a totally shit time to be a teacher.

(But average children AREN'T overlooked )

ipadquietly · 08/11/2013 23:11

Your children's school can't be that focussed on Ofsted expectations, pear...

Retropear · 08/11/2013 23:11

I disagree- and so do many other parents.

ipadquietly · 08/11/2013 23:13

FWIW I believe, hand on heart, that 10 years ago we did overlook average, or low average, children. We're having to address those children more these days because we have to account for their progress, and our pay may depend on it!

ipadquietly · 08/11/2013 23:17

What do you disagree with pear?

This is snippet of the Ofsted framework:

Achievement of pupils at the school
51. This judgement deals with academic achievement. Other, broader aspects of achievement, such as those reflected in the spiritual, moral, social and cultural development of pupils, are taken into account in the evaluation of other key areas of the school’s work. When judging achievement, inspectors have regard both for pupils’ progress and for their attainment. They take into account their starting points and age. Particular consideration is given to the progress that the lowest attaining pupils are making.

Snowbility · 08/11/2013 23:18

Our school is obsessed - to the point where is was brought up by the teacher in the sept PT consultation and we have been strongly encouraged to buy revision books for a small sum and work through them with the dcs - school are willing to act as cut price suppliers! They were not so bothered about progress any other year!

Retropear · 08/11/2013 23:20

Exactly we're not talking about the lowest attaining pupils.

That quote doesn't exactly reassure.

Even if it did a snippet of text has f all to do with reality.

ipadquietly · 08/11/2013 23:28

It's the pressure for the school to be 'good/outstanding' snow
It's the pressure on the teacher to show good to outstanding progress for his/her class for performance management.

Sometime in the future, someone, somewhere, will realise that children don't learn in a linear fashion; they will realise that little children only learn things they're interested in; they will learn that children need frames of reference to remember things; they will realise that they don't actually understand when yesterday was, so can't be taught history chronologically in a meaningful way; they will realise that little children have no REAL idea of fractions, and will have a bit of a problem with equivalent fractions at the age of 6...

Someone, somewhere, will realise that all children want to do is run around and climb trees.

I know what you're all saying... really. But we do look at the progress of each individual child...

There is no-one sadder than me about the state of education at the moment.

ipadquietly · 08/11/2013 23:29

I agree, pear, Ofsted has fuck all to do with reality. But that is a quote from the framework that schools have to 'aspire' to.

Snowbility · 08/11/2013 23:34

I have seen some fantastic teachers but many shite ones too - parents aren't stupid, we don't need to carry out in depth assessments, the results of their teaching are right there in front of us and they report on the teacher every day, we know a good one and we know a crap one, to hell with Ofsted, they see life for one day, it means very little and I pity the new parents who view an Ofsted report and Sats like gospel.

Retropear · 08/11/2013 23:37

Sorry in my experience they do not look at the individual child and the quiet average kids are let down- hugely.

My kids are only in a Satisfactory school.If by some miracle it moves to Good it will be because they've focused on the hot groups already mentioned and parents of the rest have picked up the slack.

Kind of hacks me off the way parental concerns are written off and a much as I loath the Tories if Gove manages to make schools ensure better progress with all pupils not just the less able,fsm and G&T they'll be worth tolerating a few more years.

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