Do 'average' kids who work well get overlooked? Teachers perspective welcome.

[YukonHo]

Dd is a hard worker, she tries her best, is good in class. Her teachers words not mine. She is in a class that spreads across 2 years. Her class has four 'sets' lets call them a,b,c,d, a being top etc. she is in B set. Most of her year are in a.

DH and I are both fairly academic, both with degrees, DH has two. We have always been interested involved parents where work is concerned. I help out at the school several times a month and so know the other kids, and to me there is no clear reason why she is in the lower of the two sets for that year. I am worried it is because she IS such an easy kid to teach that she gets missed in favour of the strugglers and g&t kids in her class.

Fwiw, she is doing well on levels, she's just started y4 and is on 3b for maths and 3a for English. BUT this is a below average achievement for her year, and I think she is capable of being at least as good as the others in her class. I'm not expecting miracles, nor I believe she is a 'genius' but after parents evening tonight I'm left with the impression that because she's doing OK they are not trying to spur her on further...unlike the very clever kids in her class. (Her head actually said 'well she's on 3b and that's where she should be at the end of the year.' This is all very well but you don't stop stretching a child just because they have hit the average right??)

So, am I being a pushy parent or should I have cause for concern that they are not pushing her?

[HesMyLobster]

Great post Winniefred
I'm going to try to remember those wise words next time I get caught up in the stress of levels!
Thankyou

[YukonHo]

On, and by implications I mean to her confidence and self belief, more than anything else...

[YukonHo]

Leave her, not here,

[YukonHo]

Winniefred, you are right about being influenced by the race to the top system. I see an education system so far removed from my own primary school experience that I have no idea of how to handle it in the best way for my daughter (and my some when he goes, and that's another worry, because a) he's a boy and b) he's summer born.

But SHE also feels the pressure of this system, she feels like she's not as good as the others because they are currently higher than her. They're not stupid, they know who is where, they all have their levels in their literacy and numeracy books. I'm utterly torn between wanting to just leave here and let her have her childhood and tutoring her because I'm scared of the implications if she doesn't catch up with the rest. Objectively I can see that's neurotic... emotionally, I can't help it.

[octopusinastringbag]

I think middle group children aren't pushed, at least in my DS's school where the high and low sets have teacher/ta support and the middle sets tend to be left to get on with it.

[Winniefred]

I despair at threads like this :( Your daughter is where she should be in yr4 primary, she is in a class where there are a large number of children who get the system and know the rules, many are probably tutored at home and know how to connect the dots.

Yet your daughter has reached level 3 naturally a) without being pushed and b) without being tutored. What does that tell you about your child? It tells me that your daughter is not in a race to the top. It tells me that she has a natural ability to take her time and is trying to understand what she is learning, though she probably doesn't recognise that herself,yet. I get the feeling that you are being influenced by the race to the top system, take a step back and ask yourself who are the kids that really reach the top academically. Research that and you will be shocked!

Aside from the class genius who needs no help to get it, the ones who do succeed in the long run are the ones who strive to understand, the ones who struggle in their mind to UNDERSTAND for themselves. Any bright kid can connect the dots, but how many ask themselves why these particular dots need connecting? Not one, that is why they need tutoring to get to the top. By all means push your child, yet be very,very careful that you don't push so hard you tune her out and crush her natural ability and confidence, which is likely if she is not given the time to process and connect the dots for herself. I don't think your daughter is average, I think she is very, very clever and suspect that given a loving, nurturing and questioning environment at home she will be leaving the primary high flyers far behind her in the years to come.

Wishing you well :)

[YukonHo]

I totally agree with the partnership thing schmaltzing...and this year and last it has been more possible because I can chat to the teacher readily. The y1/2 teacher is the most unapproachable , miserable old trout you could ever wish to meet. About as approachable as a bear with cubs. Not so easy then.

[swingofthings]

One thing I have discovered with my two kids is that the children attitude will have quite an impact on teacher's perception on their ability.

My DD is very extrovert and naturally ambitious. She will make it clear from the start of the year that she is very capable so that by October, her teachers will already have her recognise as highly able and treat her as such.

My DS though is another piece of cake! He is much quieter and like to stay in the background until he gets to know the people around him well. He is ambitious, but not in a showy way. He will get on with what he is being given to do and not make a fuss. He also not as articulate and charismatic as his sister, yet as we've only discovered through the years, he is as academically capable as his sister and has reached the same levels as hers at the same stage. However, I have found that it takes his teachers much longer to see him for what he is capable. I have also very much noticed the difference between experienced teachers and those not so much so. As a result, he went from all top groups in reception to bottom of the group in y1, until after Christmas, when I met with the teacher, expressed concerns, and she decided to test him individually. He was then automatically put in all top groups again. He is now in Y6 so not as laid back and more years behind to show his worth, but I expect him having to show his worth again when he starts secondary school.

[Retropear]

Llj it's not your experience because your dc aren't quiet.

New name your school is Outstanding,all schools aren't.

I have twins exactly the same in ability but with very different personalities who matured at different times.I have seen this happen in practise.

[NewNameforNewTerm]

"if they don't get 3s at 7 they're written off as regards being pushed." Actually it is completely the opposite; if they get higher levels in Year 2 (i.e. "exceeding expectations", e.g. level 3s) we expect them to be "exceeding" at every year group. Teacher have to show they are pushing ALL children to make the best progress possible for them as individuals.

I am surprised people feel the middle children aren't pushed. As a teacher I have to show at least "expected" levels of progress at every point for every child, and as we are an "outstanding" school we are expected to show "exceeding expected progress". So no child can be left coasting.

If what the OP means is they don't get the level of additional input as children on the SEN register, that is correct, but for very justifiable reasons. Or do they mean that their middle ability child/ren aren't making sufficient progress to become "above average"? That is a completely different discussion.

[lljkk]

if they don't get 3s at 7 they're written off as regards being pushed.

This is not at all my experience, either. (very "Satisfactory" school, btw).

I do agree that quiet kids are often & easily be overlooked. That's whether they are average, "able" or near the bottom of the class. Twas ever thus.

Luckily I breed stroppy little gits so don't have that problem.

[Retroformica]

My child was overlooked in infants just to add. He wasn't pushed or really noticed but that changed for him towards the end of Y3

[Retroformica]

My DS was an able quiet child in a bright class. He only came into his own in juniors. But actually having a huge group of bright children meant that the teachers taught to a higher level generally and also the kids themselves pushed each others abilities on.

[HesMyLobster]

My dd2 was a very quiet, very well behaved struggler. She got a 2b in yr2 sats for english and maths, then continued to plod around the middle for year 3 and 4, with not brilliant teachers in a particularly challenging cohort.
Then last year (yr6) something somewhere suddenly clicked and it was literally like a lightbulb flashing over her head - everything just seemed to make sense and fall into place for her.
She finished yr6 with level 6s and is now at secondary in top sets and flourishing.
I don't know how much was the standard of teaching - she was never in the intervention groups, top or bottom so you could say she was overlooked, but I think it was something in her that just took longer to get going but once it started there was no stopping it.
So I completely agree that dc develop and learn at different times and stages, and would say don't panic about yr2 results - it doesn't have to to mean they're written off if they dont get that level 3.

dd1 was and still is a high achiever - also very quiet and very well behaved, there was no option to take a level 6 test when she did sats, so although she was a very solid level 3/4 at end of yr2 she actually got level 5s in yr 6, so on paper did less well than her sister.

[ipadquietly]

I'm bitter too, having to show linear progress for little people.

It's all a load of shite.

Anyway, look on the bright side. Levels will be gone soon, and you new HT can make up new, creative methods of assessment, which are incomparable with any other schools'. Imagine the wool that will be pulled over ofsted's eyes by the more accomplished bull-shitters.

[Snowbility]

My school was wonderful to start with - the Head teacher moved on and now we are left with a HT who comes across as hugely insecure and determined to have high Sats results, as if that proves her worth - I would have rejected the school had I known about how they behave towards the Year sixes but obsessing over the Sats it's hardly something they boast about. The results we are lead to believe are as a result of amazing teaching through out the school - instead of the intensive, miserable approach they take. I know they work out the more profitable kids to help fudge their results and concentrate on those kids. Why wouldn't you?

God I am bitter, I wish my kids were getting an education this year rather than a pelting. Ds's teacher is presenting in a better light than dd's but the school has let me down a bagful.

[ipadquietly]

But retro, your children are in a focus 'group'! The teachers will need to account for them as well. My focus group this year (for my performance management, thus pay increase) is not a high profile FSM or EAL group. It is a group of 'average' children who didn't progress as much as expected last year.

[ipadquietly]

Bit still the school has to report the progress, through shite teachers and fantastic ones. At the end of the day, they are accountable to Ofsted.

Luckily, the effects of the shite teachers are generally negated by the fantastic ones!

I think parents should choose a school on whether it allows children to climb trees (like mine!)

[Retropear]

Sorry in my experience they do not look at the individual child and the quiet average kids are let down- hugely.

My kids are only in a Satisfactory school.If by some miracle it moves to Good it will be because they've focused on the hot groups already mentioned and parents of the rest have picked up the slack.

Kind of hacks me off the way parental concerns are written off and a much as I loath the Tories if Gove manages to make schools ensure better progress with all pupils not just the less able,fsm and G&T they'll be worth tolerating a few more years.

[Snowbility]

I have seen some fantastic teachers but many shite ones too - parents aren't stupid, we don't need to carry out in depth assessments, the results of their teaching are right there in front of us and they report on the teacher every day, we know a good one and we know a crap one, to hell with Ofsted, they see life for one day, it means very little and I pity the new parents who view an Ofsted report and Sats like gospel.

[ipadquietly]

I agree, pear, Ofsted has fuck all to do with reality. But that is a quote from the framework that schools have to 'aspire' to.

[ipadquietly]

It's the pressure for the school to be 'good/outstanding' snow
It's the pressure on the teacher to show good to outstanding progress for his/her class for performance management.

Sometime in the future, someone, somewhere, will realise that children don't learn in a linear fashion; they will realise that little children only learn things they're interested in; they will learn that children need frames of reference to remember things; they will realise that they don't actually understand when yesterday was, so can't be taught history chronologically in a meaningful way; they will realise that little children have no REAL idea of fractions, and will have a bit of a problem with equivalent fractions at the age of 6...

Someone, somewhere, will realise that all children want to do is run around and climb trees.

I know what you're all saying... really. But we do look at the progress of each individual child...

There is no-one sadder than me about the state of education at the moment.

[Retropear]

Exactly we're not talking about the lowest attaining pupils.

That quote doesn't exactly reassure.

Even if it did a snippet of text has f all to do with reality.

[Snowbility]

Our school is obsessed - to the point where is was brought up by the teacher in the sept PT consultation and we have been strongly encouraged to buy revision books for a small sum and work through them with the dcs - school are willing to act as cut price suppliers! They were not so bothered about progress any other year!